Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach​
Henry: Hello. I'm Henry Emmons and welcome back to Joy Lab.
Aimee Prasek: And I am Aimee Prasek. So we are talking about Awe, our Element, of Joy for July, doing that by talking about authenticity this month. "Awe-thenticity."
Henry: I was wondering if that was the connection.
Aimee Prasek: I don't know if that's what brought this up. I hope it was more, uh, it was deeper than that, but it's possible. Well, yeah, it, it is deeper. So we are talking about authenticity, [00:01:00] I'd say amidst Awe, because seeing awe around us and within us is a really good way to uncover our authenticity, to let our true self rise up if we've buried it for a while. And I'll kind of quote Thomas Merton here. I would say that he suggested that awe is a really effective tool "to finally come to the conclusion that my highest ambition is to be what I already am." And so over the next month, we'll explore some obstacles that might come up as we work on this being what I already am.
Aimee Prasek: We'll also get into how to practice awe, to uncover your true self, your authenticity, and how to live from that space more in tune with that real you, awesome nature that is already within you. So two obstacles that I wanna call out today that we'll work on. The first is [00:02:00] our creation of something called a false self. And then the second one is our sincere but usually unhelpful effort to keep looking for our true self externally. And then Henry, do you have another one you wanna add?
Henry: You know, I can think of another one, but I'm gonna save it for later if that's okay. Just to see where we go with these first two, 'cause these are really important and...
Aimee Prasek: awesome.
Henry: yeah, just, just a, just a little teaser there.
Aimee Prasek: Yes. I love that. Okay, so we'll get into that one a little later. It'll be a good one, I am sure. All right. The first obstacle, so the development of a false self. This is a concept, that Dr. Donald Winnicott brought forward. So he was a pediatrician and psychoanalyst. He was really interested in the more kind of unconscious drivers that impact our mental [00:03:00] health, particularly --well, and our development-- particularly in this case, kind of what we gather up in adolescence, but the false self is not limited to adolescence.
Henry: But it adolescence is a pretty, a pretty big time for it, isn't it?
Aimee Prasek: Yes. That's why he focuses entire work, mainly on that issue, I think.
Henry: Yeah.
Aimee Prasek: Winnicott really identified how we kind of create this false self, essentially how we discount our own needs and desires and we change or direct our behavior, our emotions, like how we show up in the world to satisfy external pressures. To please others. So, if this is something that you're really resonating with as I'm talking here, this consistent kind of modifying how you show up to please others, perhaps, or even not showing up, I think is an important point. Like, hiding yourself [00:04:00] so you don't face the criticism you think might be coming. If this deeply resonates with you, then it's probably something you learned as a kid, as Henry noted, very common. We've all done this. and we can create this false self out of a real need, like when we're trying to survive external threats like racism or biases, stigmas. As a kid, perhaps your parent or adult in the home as abusive in some way.
Aimee Prasek: So there are like some real survival reasons that we change how we show up. We put on a mask, we stuff things down. We hide, all to prevent harm. And so if you have had to have done that, I think the first thing to know is that this creation of a false self, it is not permanent. Those coping skills can be changed. Those masks can come off. And we also might create this false self for reasons that may not [00:05:00] seem so survival focus, but are super strong as well. We may do it just to people please, to avoid conflict, to fit in, like thanks social media for putting more pressure on that, more visibility to constantly sort of, um, into those spaces or to, to constantly be putting on a mask to sort of externally look a certain way perhaps. So we might also put a mask on to just like join a group to feel like we fit into a group. There are lots of reasons why we do this. I'll give an, I think an example that has been rising up for me lately as we've been thinking about this. I remember that my dad hated his job. So he was a CPA like an early tech entrepreneur, but he and he never talked about his work. It was so obvious that it was just like sucking his existence. Never wanted to [00:06:00] talk about it. And about seven years ago, I learned that he actually wanted to be a park ranger, so he's since passed.
Henry: Oh, no kidding.
Aimee Prasek: I know. I was like, what? I thought he was super into finances or something. I, I learned he went back to college to do that. When he was young, he kind of took some time off after high school or whatever. But, it was during a summer internship that he was part of this park system doing boat tours for folks. So he was taking folks on this big, I, I think it was Lake Shasta, and he was taking folks on these boat tours and most of the people that were going on, it was kind of like a bougie boat tour. So, the folks he was driving around had a ton of money. They had these massive houses along the lake, and they'd go on these boat tours and they'd talk about their money and their houses their boats that they weren't on at that moment and he, I think he just got entranced by it, [00:07:00] truly like he perceived them having power, which they did, right?
Aimee Prasek: Money gives us that in this culture, power not wisdom. Power, not joy, power, not happiness, or authenticity. But, I think he saw that and thought, oh, this is it. So he left his passion for the outdoors and he became a CPA. Nothing wrong with CPAs, but I think like the exact opposite of a park ranger would probably be a CPA. Not good or bad, if you wanna be a park ranger, you probably shouldn't be a CPA. You wanna be a CPA, you probably shouldn't be a park ranger.
Henry: Right.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah. But, you know, so he did that. He got his big house, he got that money, and he also lost it, which is the thing about putting masks on. They can fall off,
Henry: Mm-hmm.
Aimee Prasek: And when that was who he thought he was, what he thought he was, when that mask went away, I think he [00:08:00] felt like he really disappeared.
Henry: Hm.
Aimee Prasek: You know, everything, everything went away. There was nothing to anchor into, and it can be really, really unsettling.
Henry: Mm-hmm.
Aimee Prasek: So there's a million reasons why we do this. It's so common, but we don't have to do this. We can get outta this. We can find more power, our power in our authenticity, rather than these masks that can be taken away from us.
Henry: Yeah, that's a great example, Aimee. And you know, as you said earlier, I don't think that that this putting on masks stops at adolescence. You know, I mean, it, I do think it's intensified that, and the, the, I mean, just sheer the sheer desire to fit in, probably every one of us put masks on at that age. But, you know, I, I also think that these masks we wear are, well they're often driven by ego or you know, desire for something. [00:09:00] They're not always, least not in the sense we've been talking about. So, just as an example, I think that oftentimes we aspire to be like somebody that we admire, like a teacher or a mentor. And that actually might be a very positive thing, kind of adaptive or it helps us get, maybe get out of ourselves or you know, become a better person in, in some ways, but after a while, even if it lifts us up, I think ultimately it's still not the same as really being ourselves in the way that Thomas Merton was talking about.
Aimee Prasek: Hmm.
Henry: So when I was in my early thirties, I was just starting out as a psychiatrist and I already had a very strong holistic orientation, and I remember probably a lot of people my age remember watching this [00:10:00] special on PBS
Henry: that was done by a journalist named Bill Moyers, and it was called Healing and the Mind, and it was fantastic. It was just music to my ears. But there was one episode, I think there were, he highlighted four or five different holistic kinds of programs, but one of them in particular just captivated me and it was about this man that nobody had ever heard of at the time, John Kabat Zinn. And you know, he created this program called Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, which just was compelling to me.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: So much so that, I mean, I think I was just two or three years into my work as a psychiatrist and I just jumped on it. I, I found out where he was teaching. I went out and trained with him, out east, and I remember very clearly during this training he and [00:11:00] his, his teaching partner, Saki Santorelli, they, they, they talked about how, you know, we need to make this our own somehow. You know, we need to find our own voice in this. We can't just parrot, you know, what they say or what they do. However, I was so inexperienced, insecure, plus I put the two of them up on a pedestal. So for years I can just hear myself repeating things that they'd say, trying to say it in, you know, John Kabat Zinn's eastern, Boston accent, which, you know, I'm terrible at capturing accents, so,
Aimee Prasek: I love that you had a Boston accent.
Henry: Well, I didn't really, I just, I gave up on that. But still, you know, I mean. You, you get it? Yeah. So after a few years, you know, I just realized I had to find some other ways to talk about mindfulness rather than just doing, kind of using their words over and over.[00:12:00]
Henry: So I took a sabbatical and I sought out some other teachers and workshops that I thought would, were getting at something very similar, but using different language and actually less, less steeped in, in Buddhist thought, you know, trying to find ways to appeal to a broader group of people. And I also tried really consciously to adapt it more intentionally to my work as a psychiatrist and applying it directly to things like depression and anxiety. And that just really worked for me. So, I kind of phased out of teaching MBSR, which was actually great, you know, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. But really it wasn't until I stopped trying to be John Kabat Zinn took off that mask and really made it my own, that things really started to click for me.
Henry: And I think that that's, that's when it kind of opened me up to writing books in my own voice. you know, giving talks, [00:13:00] workshops, and kind of in, in some ways even the seeds for, for Joy Lab, I think came out of that journey to true self for me.
Aimee Prasek: I love that. I, it's making me think there's a difference between washable face paint and like full mask and shield of armor.
Henry: Ah.
Aimee Prasek: And I think it's kind of fun to put some face paint on. Sometimes it makes you, maybe you have a little bit more confidence,
Henry: Yeah.
Henry: you try
Aimee Prasek: something new. Like, I remember when I thought running was way to enlightenment, maybe like runners, had some kind of knowledge
Henry: Uhhuh.
Aimee Prasek: the world that I might wanna act. I wanna be part of the runner subculture.
Henry: Yeah.
Aimee Prasek: Put that washable face paint on for like two times, then wash that off, 'cause I was like, Nope, I am not a runner. Running is a bad idea. I've said that before. Nothing wrong with trying it on. You still see my face. I was dying, panting [00:14:00] even amidst that face paint looked like this was the end of me. That's, you can wash it off, right? There's like something kind of fun about trying things on.
Henry: I like that.
Aimee Prasek: Maybe we can kind of think about these masks, you know, in a bit of a spectrum, a
Henry: Yeah. And they're not all bad,
Aimee Prasek: no. Washable face paint to, armor.
Henry: but you do eventually wash it off.
Aimee Prasek: You've taken off the John Kabat Zinn face paint. So let's, let's dive into this second obstacle related, is that we focused our search for our true self externally. So I think this can be sneaky. As I said, it's similar to creating a false self, but in this case, instead of trying to please someone else, I think we have more of a focus unconsciously, a drive to reject or diminish ourselves and then find ourselves outside. So we [00:15:00] go on a journey to find ourselves, and once we've found ourselves out there, then we're all good. And I just don't think that's true. We are right here. You are right here in this moment. There is no you out there that you need to find. There is no fixed, perfect version of yourself that is separate from you. There is not a you from 20 years ago that is waiting to come back, and that has lived like a separate unscarred life that you can back to. So that person is you right here. And I think it sounds so obvious when we kind of think through this but we can really trick ourselves into thinking that there is some permanent, perfect iteration of ourselves that lives externally to us that we just have to get back to or become so that we can be happy. And I think that way of [00:16:00] thinking, which is a rejection of ourself in the moment, can keep us chasing something that doesn't exist for our entire life. And I think that's why Merton wrote, "Finally." So after all this searching, finally I have stopped searching outside myself and have come to accept myself, which is essential if we want to really live authentically.
Henry: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think, I think you're right. I think that Merton wrote that kind of later in his, his life even, you know, he was somebody who really, I think the impression I have is he kind of agonized, you know, he was really working it internally and, and then was, became very open about that, that journey and his writing. And it, it just, it was so helpful for me to read him.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah. Yeah.
Henry: But this, this also reminds me so much of a quote from Parker Palmer, who,short book [00:17:00] called Let Your Life Speak, the whole book, I think, is about finding true self through vocation primarily, that that's the purpose of that book.
Henry: But I remember reading it right when I was struggling with how to become more myself in my work as a psychiatrist, and it was just transforming for me. So here's, here's the quote I, I'm recalling from that. "What a long time it can take. To become the person one has always been." And I think there's something similar to the Merton quote that, you know, to become the person one has always been. It just sounds like it should be so easy, doesn't it?
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: I mean, what could be more easy and natural than becoming the person you've always been? But it is not that easy, at least in, in my experience and most people I know.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: [00:18:00] And this kind of brings me to the third obstacle that I was thinking of before. So I'm, I'm gonna bring it in Aimee.
Aimee Prasek: All right. Let's hear it.
Henry: So, it seems to me that we often think of the search for true self as this deep spiritual journey. I know I do that. This is definitely something I'm prone to, and I love the idea of thinking this, of this as a spiritual path, but I think it's just too easy to turn it into this big deal. You know? It's like it becomes a almost a mystical quest, and then sometimes starts to feel unattainable.
Henry: And, and actually we talked about this in the past, I think with where the experience of awe also can feel like it's just this extraordinary thing that only happens under these dramatic circumstances. And I think we're trying, you [00:19:00] know, with this conversation too, to make both awe and this path to true self more accessible, more ordinary, I guess.
Henry: It's not something that has to be super special or rare. So I know this is, this is the first episode in, in what we're billing as kind of a series on authenticity. And we're gonna talk about this in a few different ways, and I'm hoping that one of the things that comes out of this series is the idea that there is nothing extraordinary about this path.
Henry: It is the most ordinary thing ever, because whether we think about it or not, every one of us is somewhere along that path. Most of us just don't know it. I mean, we don't think about it, but I think this is, this is the work of our lifetime. This is the primary work of our lifetime, and there [00:20:00] is no end to it while we are alive.
Henry: Because we're always changing. Each new moment brings new circumstances that call for something somewhat different from us. But there is a big irony or contradiction here, a big one, and that is we have freedom of choice. And strange as it sounds, we can choose not to be fully ourselves. And in that sense, I think that, you know, we can fail to live our own lives.
Henry: I don't want to do that. And I think in the end, none of us really want that. So I am just so glad we're talking about authenticity, about true self. I, I get very passionate about this. I just think it's so important and I see it as a, a really central [00:21:00] part of a joyful life. Almost like it's, it's the infrastructure or it's the undercurrent to joy.
Henry: Because when we become ourselves, there's a lot of unnecessary things that just drop away, which frees up so much energy we can let go of so many burdens. There's just a lot more room for these elements that bring us joy.
Aimee Prasek: A choice. I'm just thinking through this. We can choose to not fully ourselves. There's a, I'm gonna, I cannot remember the philosopher... Wittgenstein... I'll put it in the show notes, but he talks about how we understand the purpose of life, like our true self, then we stop talking about it because the purpose of life is to live life. It's funny that we're talking about it [00:22:00] completely here, so maybe... but I I mean there's, yeah, it's like the choices. It's in those actions that we make daily. I love bringing awe, bringing this search for self down to just this daily practice that is available to us at every moment and doesn't have to be, out there, doesn't have to be so intimidating. So yeah, let's do that this month as we work through our element of awe and through authenticity. We'll do that through these episodes, learning how to practice that. I wanna close with some wisdom from Lao Tzu, from the Tao Te Ching. I think it's a good reminder as we work to kind of shake off this false self and these masks.
Aimee Prasek: Here it is. "When you are content to be simply yourself and don't [00:23:00] compare or compete. Everybody will respect you."
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