Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome back to Joy Lab.
Aimee Prasek: And I am Aimee Prasek. So we are in our Element of Gratitude, and we're talking about gratitude for our Moms today. But Moms with a capital M, I'd say so, like all that has nurtured us. gratitude for the people, creatures, environments who have shaped and supported us. So once again, like in our Month of Gratitude, we are getting into that [00:01:00] second aspect of gratitude.
Aimee Prasek: We noted several episodes ago, relational gratitude. And we talked about it last episode. And I love this aspect of gratitude and applying it in this way because it not just helps us go beyond what can be a transactional relationship with gratitude, sometimes, you know, I'm grateful because you did me a favor, gave me a gift, uh, but by naming and thanking these Capital M Mothers in our lives, when we do that, I think it gives us an immediate realization.
Aimee Prasek: And it's this, none of us became who we are on our own. Every part of us has been influenced, nurtured, supported by others. Some of those people we remember vividly. Others we may barely recall, but we know this, we are influenced deeply by the mothers in our lives, by everyone in our [00:02:00] lives. This kind of application of gratitude is inspired, or it inspired me anyway from some of the work of Dr. Donald Winnicott, who was an English pediatrician and psychoanalyst in the mid 20th century. He's best known for introducing one of my favorite concepts called "Good Enough Parenting" or The Good Enough Parent.
Henry: Every parent who listening should, take note of that,
Aimee Prasek: God, yes.
Henry: concept.
Aimee Prasek: So not the perfect parent, not the mother or father of the year, but the making mistakes, trying their best, ordinary, loving caregiver who shows up. Who, yeah, shows up the best they can day after day with enough love and care to help a child grow.
Henry (2): when I was in my psychiatry training, I was really influenced by Winnicott and by this concept of the good enough [00:03:00] parent,
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: you know, at, at the time. It was a, a big theme. It seemed like, at least, at least in the place where I did my training.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: And believe it or not, there was a time not that long ago, actually, when in the field of psychiatry and even psychoanalysis and mothers got blamed for almost everything
Aimee Prasek: Oh God.
Henry: that went wrong with their kids.
Aimee Prasek: What's new? Huh?
Henry: Oh my gosh. Even, even schizophrenia, which you know. Seems pretty obvious now that it's a very strongly biological and genetically-based illness.
Aimee Prasek: Right.
Henry: But there was a time when that was, the theory was that that was caused by inadequate or overbearing mothering
Aimee Prasek: .Hmm.
Henry: And there was even a name for this: the schizophrenogenic mother. And, and Winnicott, who you referred to was one of [00:04:00] those who, whose writing really called this into question. It was very, very, influential.
Henry: Just an important antidote to the prevailing beliefs at the time. And it was pretty radical at that time to give mothers a break just to suggest that they didn't cause their kids' mental illness. And also just to suggest that mothers or fathers didn't have to be perfect, they just needed to be good enough. You know, I think anyone who's ever had a hand in raising a child knows there's no way you're gonna do everything right
Henry: Um.There's just no way, and you don't have to. You just need to do enough so that that little one feels safe and secure, they feel seen and appreciated for who they are, and they know they're loved, even though they're not perfect either. By the [00:05:00] way, these
Aimee Prasek: are similar
Henry: things that we need as adults, aren't they?
Aimee Prasek: Oh God. Right. It never changes.
Henry: But kids, you know, they're so darn resilient
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: they're gonna be fine with just a few of the basic things, you know, and largely kind of getting out of their way and letting them, letting them do their thing.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah. Yeah. The schizophrenogenic mother hypothesis. I just, I'm just like imagining back in that day too, this was a big, in the fifties and sixties when, like, sorry, but a bunch of guys, researchers,
Henry: It was a bunch of guys. It was all, it was all older,
Aimee Prasek: yeah.
Henry: old guys.
Aimee Prasek: Fiddlin' in their labs, not at home, helping with childcare. Can I add? And they're like, oh, my kid is a real, a-hole or whatever.
Aimee Prasek: And you know, I, I don't like my kid. And, and hmm, I wonder what could be the, oh, it's gonna be my wife. She's the cause of it. And there was the refrigerator mother. That was another one. That was the,
Henry: don't, [00:06:00] I don't know about
Aimee Prasek: the cause of autism were refrigerator mothers. So those were mothers who were cold.
Henry: Oh, okay.
Aimee Prasek: I mean like there was a type of mother for every mental illness.
Aimee Prasek: Right. So that was the, that was the cause. And then, yeah, I mean, and the the methodology for these studies was terrible. So it's not like we're just discounting good research. This was crappy research done by some... guys, I'll just...
Henry: you just gonna leave it at that.
Aimee Prasek: I'm just gonna say guys. And yeah, I'm glad Winnicott said something because I don't know, maybe we'd still be blaming moms for things that aren't legit.
Aimee Prasek: Which, yes, that still happens, but, um, you noted what kids need. Yes. Feeling safe, secure, seen, appreciated. That's what we all need. Uh, loved, and not, [00:07:00] you know, not being that perfect parent. I, I just love Winnicott's work on this, because it also, what I thought was really interesting is it doesn't dismiss the impact that adults have on kids, There's a ton of epidemiological research here that has shown that kids living in homes with an adult with what I think should be more precisely described as untreated mental health issues or unsuccessfully treated or undertreated ,Those kids are more likely to have mental health issues too. Kids mental health issues also can improve by treating the adult's mental health issues, which is profound, right? Interconnection here.
Aimee Prasek: That's powerful to consider. Back to the schizophrenogenic mother hypothesis, again, I get that this was happening before we had large data sets and more insight and technology into these conditions ,but I still think the point here was to take something really complex like schizophrenia [00:08:00] at that time and find a single culprit.
Aimee Prasek: That's what, you know, trying to do. So, there is an impact here. Yes. But it's just not that simple. It's not causal. These aren't direct relationships. A parent's depression doesn't cause a kid's depression. There's a relationship there, but there's so much more happening with depression. So many factors.
Aimee Prasek: And Winnecott saw that, that yes, parenting caregiving matters and it doesn't have to be perfect. Good enough. Safety and love being the focus is good enough. And he also had a really important insight that not only are we unfairly blaming mothers, the the bigger problem may actually be that we are not appreciating the mothers enough in our lives.
Aimee Prasek: And I wanna share some of his his thoughts here. Some of his writings, it's from his book, Winnicott on the Child. I'm gonna take some sections.
Aimee Prasek: "It seems [00:09:00] to me that there is something missing in human society. Children grow up and become in their turn, fathers and mothers, but on the whole, they do not grow up to know and acknowledge just what their mothers did for them at the start. Is not this contribution of the devoted mother unrecognized precisely because it is immense? If this contribution is accepted,
Aimee Prasek: it follows that every man or woman who is sane, every man or woman who has the feeling of being a person in the world and for whom the world means something, every happy person, is in infinite debt to a woman. If our society delays making full acknowledgement of this dependence, which is a historical fact in the initial stage of development of every individual.
Aimee Prasek: There must remain a block both to progress and to regression a block that is based on fear. If there is no true [00:10:00] recognition of the mother's part, then there must remain a vague fear of dependence. This fear will sometimes take the form of a fear of "WOMAN," or fear of a woman, and at other times will take less easily recognized forms, always including the fear of domination.
Aimee Prasek: Unfortunately, the fear of domination does not lead groups of people to avoid being dominated. On the contrary, it draws them towards a specific or chosen domination. Indeed, were the psychology of the dictator studied, one would expect to find that, amongst other things, he, in his own personal struggle, is trying to control the woman whose domination he unconsciously fears, trying to control her by encompassing her, acting for her, and in turn, demanding total [00:11:00] subjection and love."
Aimee Prasek: This is feeling close to home, right?
Aimee Prasek: So, Winnicott is warning us that if we don't acknowledge our dependence on the loving care and support of mothers, then we let a fear of dependence seed in us and it grows. He sees it as the roots of misogyny, sexism, even authoritarianism. And I think Winnicott would agree, there's dependence in just the fact that a mom grew us and birthed us.
Aimee Prasek: We, we have to acknowledge that. He did in his, in his writings. And there are so many mothers in our worlds, other folks who nurture, nurture us in other ways. Acknowledging them is essential too. When we don't, when we have that fear of dependence, it can show up as an aversion to vulnerability. Oof, [00:12:00] like discomfort with asking for help.
Aimee Prasek: And in more extreme cases, he's saying it can manifest as domination and control over, right? The attempt to bury our fear of dependence by taking power over others. And so in short, failing to feel gratitude for the ones who shaped us doesn't just affect our personal lives, it affects whole cultures.
Aimee Prasek: This is like a huge interpretation that he is, he had brought up, I, I think he's onto something. I just love it.
Henry: Yeah, I, I really like the way that Winnicott turns this thing on its head, you know? So instead of saying that anyone who develops mental health problems can blame it on their mothers, he, he's basically saying that anyone who's emotionally healthy can thank their mothers for it.
Aimee Prasek: That's right.
Henry: I also like what you're doing, Aimee, by kind of broadening the idea of Mother to include all of those who helped nurture [00:13:00] and shape us. 'Cause there were a lot of them for every one of us
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: I, I suppose I might, might personally change the focus from one of on dependence
Aimee Prasek: Hmm.
Henry: idea of interdependence. It's true when we're very young, we are incredibly dependent on those around us. And then there's a way in which that never ends, I guess. We do continue to need others and they continue to need us.
Henry: That's kind of the point, is that there's this never ending web of connection mutuality going both ways, and I think if we see that, when we really see that, we can all feel grateful for it and, we can realize how much we all have in common.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: You're kind of getting at the bigger societal [00:14:00] challenges that we're all very much aware of, and I think that right now we could all use a healthy dose of the awareness of how interdependent we are.
Aimee Prasek: Hmm.
Henry: Right, right now, at this point in time it would be helpful for us.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: think that breaks down the sense of division, you know, this us versus them idea. And, you know, as I think, think, about it, I, I like how the idea that we all needed mothers and we still need them, puts us all in the same boat. We all have the same basic needs. We share the common roots of our humanity, one of them is that we can and should be grateful for all of the good mothering that we've received.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, I'm thinking a little bit about last episode when we were talking about the characters [00:15:00] that we channel to engage in healthier self-talk. A loving mother would be a great one to, to bring into that practice. Yeah. This, I, yeah, I, if, if folks have other thoughts about Winnicott and sort of taking it into this like, global practice of gratitude, love to hear 'em share your thoughts with us. I, I think that this, this big picture look at gratitude is really powerful. I think it's what Winnicott is pointing out that, when we truly acknowledge these mothers as well, it often leads us to pay it forward. So we're more likely to extend that loving care to those around us, as you're saying, Henry, to, to soothe, to ease some of this feeling of, of disconnection and, the divisions that we feel that separateness, because we recognize how much of ourselves came from someone else's care. Like we [00:16:00] recognize that and then we offer it up as well. So, yeah, this week, identify some of your mothers.
Aimee Prasek: You can engage in that self-talk practice channel a loving mother in a character in your mind. Let them speak to you with that love and care that you deserve no matter what all the time. Absolutely. And maybe even like, literally call out some of the mothers in your life. Text them, email them.
Aimee Prasek: I hate to say call your mother. Um... oh my God.
Henry: But that is, that is kind of what you're
Aimee Prasek: Oh no. Oh my God. Yep. Maybe call your mom. I don't know. but
Henry: Why not? Why not?
Aimee Prasek: Let them know and whatever mom, you know, and auntie,neighbor, like whoever, let them know how they helped shape you and how you're grateful for them. It matters a lot. Or maybe just take a quiet [00:17:00] moment to honor someone who's no longer here, who, supported you, who nurtured you.
Aimee Prasek: I think that practice also, it like transcends time and space. Gratitude never expires. That, that gratitude, even if the person is gone, is not a wasted, acknowledgement. It goes out and it creates good as well in you and in the world. So I wanna close this with a little motivation, a little wisdom from, of course, Rumi, who we quote often.
Aimee Prasek: Here it is. "We are born of love. Love is our mother."
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