269. Know Yourself: The Humility Practice That Quiets Rumination and Builds Emotional Resilience
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[00:00:05] Henry Emmons, MD: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons, and welcome back to Joy Lab.
[00:00:10] Aimee Prasek, PhD: And I'm Aimee Prasek. We are in our Element of Humility, and we are knowing ourselves. That's what we're working on today. We're following humility researcher Dr. Daryl Van Tongeren's framework here, with the idea that humility includes knowing ourselves, checking ourselves, and going beyond ourselves.
So we dug into that last Episode. We'll hit those other two later. As I said, today is about knowing ourselves, and I love that this is the start of Humility.
[00:00:45] Henry Emmons, MD: So do I. I think the order that these are in is just great. So know yourself first. It's just foundational, isn't it?
[00:00:55] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah.
[00:00:55] Henry Emmons, MD: Because if you don't have a clear, honest sense of who you are, then checking yourself is hard to do, or it comes across as being kinda harsh, you know, self-critical, or defensive.
And going beyond yourself, opening to others with genuine humility, that's really tough to do if you haven't first made peace with yourself. So let's start here. And it's sometimes uncomfortable, I think, this work of really seeing ourselves honestly and
[00:01:31] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yes, well said, the uncomfortable work of really seeing ourselves. I totally feel that. And the freeing work of it. We'll get into all that. So we defined Humility last Episode, noting that it's not the opposite of confidence. It doesn't include harsh self-criticism or self-sacrifice, as you noted, Henry. Humility means that we have an accurate, grounded sense of who we are. It's not inflated, it's not deflated. And I'll say that [this] discomfort is why using Humility as a path to seeing ourselves is so essential because humility really requires us to kind of anchor that search with truth, with self-compassion, with self-worth.
And we did an Episode a while back around this idea that you are a person worth knowing. I love that. And that's what this is. Humility requires us to believe that we are a person worth knowing, and so is everyone else. We value ourselves and others because we have value and they have value. It's just inherent. And if you don't have value for yourself, that's not humility. It's maybe martyrdom, it's maybe self-sacrifice. We talked about that. And if you don't value others, that's moving into arrogance or narcissism.
And I'll say, interestingly, who do you think scores themselves higher on humility? Like, what group of people? Like nuns and folks who work for nonprofits? Anybody? Shout it out loud if you're on the train with earbuds. It's people with narcissistic traits.
[00:03:22] Henry Emmons, MD: Oh. Hahaha.
[00:03:24] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Isn't that great? I love that.
[00:03:25] Henry Emmons, MD: They're even the best at that. Hahaha.
[00:03:28] Aimee Prasek, PhD: But to me, that just — it's just such clear evidence that this matters to us, right? Like, that is important. It's so important that if I'm, you know, if I'm scoring higher on narcissistic traits, I wanna make sure you know I'm humble. So I think that's an interesting little quirk that many of us have too. So we'll talk about that more.
So we have to know ourselves, or we'll think we're humble when we're maybe instead harming ourselves, 'cause, you know, narcissism can certainly harm others as well, but it is certainly a self-destructive energy. And so I think there is this really great paradox that comes with knowing ourselves through this lens of anchoring in humility, and it's that as we gain more humble self-knowledge, we become less preoccupied with ourselves. We can avoid rumination and self-criticism a bit more often. We can avoid self-absorption, even though we're engaging in this practice of self-study and self-knowledge. And that is really grounding because we're able to then see our strengths more clearly; we can see our limits more clearly, without spiraling into shame, or harsh self-judgment, or trying to overcompensate. And then, you know, we can recognize patterns in our thoughts, in our emotions, and behaviors in such a way that invites change if we want it. It's sort of that paradox, as well, of change that Carl Rogers noted when he said, "It's only when I accept myself that I can change."
So that's what this is about.
[00:05:05] Henry Emmons, MD: Hmm. Yeah, let me add a little bit more about this reflection versus rumination. These are both happening in our minds, but I think they're really different from one another and, you know, this is where a lot of people get stuck.
Rumination, in fact, IS getting stuck — in your thoughts, just over and over. So reflection, I think, is when we look at ourselves with curiosity and compassion. So it's asking, "What's happening here?" Or, "What can I learn?" And it's observing your patterns, but not judging yourself. So observation without judgment. It's just like you might watch the clouds go across the sky. You're just interested. You're not judging them typically.
Now, rumination is really different. It could hardly be more different. It's repetitive. It's usually harsh. There's an edge to it. It doesn't lead anywhere. It just loops over and over again. So it's that voice that might say, "Why did I do that? Why did I say that? What is wrong with me? I'm always messing things up." Round and round, you know? There's just no exit [from] that. And research shows that self-focused attention, when it is ruminative, is strongly, strongly linked to both anxiety and some forms of depression. But when we're self-focused with our attention, guided by self-compassion, that reduces anxiety and depression. Same underlying action, just a different, very different quality to it. So the one tears you down, the other literally builds you up. And so when we talk about knowing yourself, we're talking about reflection, not rumination. We're looking clearly but kindly; compassionately. We're holding our self-awareness loosely.
[00:07:30] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah, I love that distinction. Your description of rumination, and going round and round with no exit, reminds me of _National Lampoon's European Vacation_ when Clark is on this roundabout that's common in, you know, it was common in Europe at the time, but not so much in the US. And he's going around and at first it's, like, kind of cool. And then it starts to turn into this terrifying loop because he can't get out of — he can't get into the left lane to exit. And they're there for, like, eight hours; the kids are sleeping in the back, and he just keeps looping and looping 'cause he can't get to an exit.
[00:08:11] Henry Emmons, MD: Hahaha. That's a pretty good visual for rumination. Yeah.
[00:08:16] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Absolutely. And, Humility can sort of help us move over, like move over a lane and exit the circle. We can go see something else. Last Episode, I noted that there are four types of humility: relational, intellectual, cultural, and existential. And I like these types because it can help us kind of assess our humility, you know, where it might be showing up, or maybe not so much showing up, in these kind of domains of our life.
And with knowing ourself, I think it can really help us to tap into that relational type of humility, how we hold ourselves in relation to others, because knowing ourselves is also about right-sizing ourselves. That's a term that Van Tongeren uses. I really like that, right-sizing Isn't that good?
[00:09:05] Henry Emmons, MD: I like I like right-sizing ourselves. Yes, it's very good.
[00:09:08] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah, it's... it's empowered. Like, it's not inflated, not deflated. So there's — at that essence, it's like holding yourself with respect, and gratitude, and compassion. Not below; not above others. That is self-knowledge. And right-sizing can be tough. There's two obstacles I'll note here that I think can trip us up.
The first is sometimes known as the idealized-self. And the idealized-self is really that best version that you have of your future self. It's the person you wanna be. With all the qualities, and traits, and abilities that you want. Which is not a bad thing — this kind of vision and to work toward it. Carl Rogers' work with self-concept made clear that the idealized-self is sort of like part of who we are and what we do. It can be really good to have these kinds of aspirational ideas about ourselves. They can be motivating. They can keep us growing. But Rogers and others also talk about incongruence or discrepancies — the difference between your real self and your idealized self.
When that space is really big, then that idealized-self may not be motivating anymore. It might be deflating to think about how far you are from some sort of out-there, perfect version of yourself. So we have to be aware of who we are truly, and what we're envisioning. Which means as well, knowledge of how we formed that idealized-self. Was it based on media messaging, or some glossy social media version [of an] influencer? Was it based on harsh expectations from a parent? So it's easy to let these types of pressures craft an idealized-self that is just not realistic or meaningful; that resonates. We can adopt other folks' lives hoping we'll receive the attention or recognition that they're getting, or the approval from that parent, and this can be really detrimental. I think a lot of us have felt that kind of disconnect. Sort of feeling lost in our own lives, chasing after something, that idealized-self, in a kind of endless traffic circle. So if we want to know ourselves, it's the real-self we have to get to know. One that is connected — interconnected. One that is humble, resilient, worthy. All those things are part of us. And when we build an idealized-self based on that, then it can be really motivating. It can be really empowering.
The second obstacle is something called the better-than-average effect. Let's do a quick experiment. Imagine you're in a room with 99 other folks, and everyone takes a survey assessing just general intelligence, and you all get ranked one to 100, right? Everybody gets a number based on general intelligence. Where do you land? So just let the number pop up in your head. Haha. Henry, do you wanna share yours?
[00:12:20] Henry Emmons, MD: No, I do not. Hahaha.
[00:12:23] Aimee Prasek, PhD: I think the first time I did this, I wanna say I was like 65 or 68, you know. And I probably picked a funny number between 65 and 70, 'cause I can't just pick a normal even number. So maybe you said that too. If you said between 60 or 70, or so, then welcome to the club of impossibility. 'Cause the idea there is that the majority of ourselves — there's been some great research on this — the majority of ourselves put ourselves above average. So 70% of us are not smarter than 70% of other people. It's just not possible. So... and we all do it. This is not like, this is not something [only] other people do. Which would be another example of the better-than-average effect, if you're I don't do that." So as much as we talk about our negativity bias, or we hear about that a lot, us humans do have a positivity bias too, and it protects our ego a bit.
And it's not necessarily a bad thing, just as a negativity bias isn't necessarily a bad thing. But we need to be aware of it, because if we aren't, we can easily inflate ourselves. And again, it's not about shrinking or downsizing ourselves, it's about right-sizing ourselves. It allows us to see our strengths, and utilize those. And to see where we're not so strong, weak even, and decide if we wanna strengthen in that area. And maybe [we don't], because we can't improve on everything. We can't be above average on everything. So it's essential to be honest, so you can decide where to put your energy.
[00:14:07] Henry Emmons, MD: Mm-hmm. And I bet there are some folks who would put themselves at 34% or something like that. And right-sizing, then, might be moving somewhere up that scale.
[00:14:23] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Ah, yes, absolutely.
[00:14:25] Henry Emmons, MD: Yeah.
[00:14:26] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yep. Yep.
[00:14:28] Henry Emmons, MD: What you're saying, Aimee, about being better than average and even being, you know, this idealized-self reminds me of a common trap I think a lot of us fall into, which I'll just frame as the need to be special, stand out.
And sometimes I think that comes from hearing, over and over again as a child, that you're special. Or it might just be that we're competitive by nature, and so you wanna be better than others. But I think ultimately it hides a sense of inadequacy that will never, ever be filled by becoming more special, because that's not really what it's all about. So knowing this about ourselves can be kind of tricky, because it's a very short step from acknowledging this sense of inadequacy to beating ourselves up about the fact that we have that sense of inadequacy.
So we have to be very, very gentle; have compassionate eyes, when we see this kind of truth about ourselves. So that brings me to one more obstacle I wanna add: the harsh inner critic that masquerades as self-awareness.
[00:15:55] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Oh, yes.
[00:15:55] Henry Emmons, MD: Yeah. So a lot of us can relate to this, that we have this internalized voice that might have originally been the voice of a parent, a teacher, our culture, maybe a coach. A voice that is constantly evaluating and finding us lacking in some way.
Trouble is, we mistake that voice for honest self-assessment. We might think, "I'm being humble. I'm seeing my flaws clearly." But there is nothing humble about beating yourself up over something like this. That is just the ego turned inward; still making everything about you, still insisting you should be something other than what you are. And true humility does not beat you up for falling short. It simply acknowledges, "This is where I am right now. This is what I'm working with." No drama. No shame. Just honestly. And holding ourselves gently.
[00:17:03] Aimee Prasek, PhD: I love Dr. Kristin Neff's note that self-compassion is the foundation of honest self-awareness. And she says that that's the case because you can look at yourself clearly when you're not afraid of what you'll find. I think that's so true. So this self-knowledge, this pursuit of knowing ourselves, really has to be grounded in that self-acceptance and that self-compassion to dampen some of those fears and to face we still have fear about with love and support.
[00:17:37] Henry Emmons, MD: Well, I think a lot of people may avoid this work of self-knowledge because of being afraid of what they'll find. And that kind of makes sense. If you're not sure you can be kind to yourself with what you discover, then yeah, you know, it's safer not to look. But here's what I believe. I think you can start small. You don't have to dive into your deepest wounds or your biggest failures. You can start with something manageable. A minor shortcoming. A small pattern, or habit ,that you've noticed that you'd like to change. And when you look at it, practice just observing it without the need to jump in and fix it, or judge it; either of those things. Let's set them aside.
So you just say, "Oh, there's that thing I do. Interesting." Kind of like you're a curious scientist studying an interesting phenomena, not that you're a prosecutor building a case against yourself, which is what we often do. So that gentle curiosity creates a sense of safety. And in that safety, it's really possible to practice honest self-knowledge.
[00:19:09] Aimee Prasek, PhD: I love that. A prosecutor building a case. That just nails it. Oh my God. I feel that when I get stuck in rumination on self-criticism, that energy of trying to get all the evidence to support your case of how you screwed up, or how you're not worthy or, you know, also feeling like you have a jury, and they're about to judge you. And there's even some sort of righteousness or validity that we get sucked into — this idea that the process is worth it. Like, this whole thing needs to happen for justice to be served, for me to be a better person.
Whew.
Let's e- Let's exit the traffic circle. It just keeps us stuck. So, you know, the opposite of that though, is not to stick our heads in the sand, to ignore our inner world; never introspect. It's to take a different approach, as you're just sharing so well here, Henry — to get more curious, to support it with self-compassion. It's so much more effective. I'll say as well, and this will link to next week, if there is a loving, supportive person in your life who you would like to take some constructive feedback from, I think it can be really helpful in this pursuit of knowing one's self. And it's also a powerful practice in humility, like directly. So be thoughtful about the questions you ask, and who you ask as well, for some of that constructive feedback, because you want it to be honest, and you want it to be given in such a way, with self-compassion, with support, so that it can enrich you.
For example, I told a story on the Pod a while ago — when my friend had called me out for being late to stuff and I told her that I was never late to stuff that matters — and I said [that] clearly I was missing the point; I came to recognize that that was off the mark. The other half of the story though, that I didn't tell, was that not long after that, I asked my friend if [me] being late to stuff had hurt her feelings, and she said yes. And she noted that it wasn't because I was perpetually late to stuff, or to everything really. It was that I was actually on time to lots of other stuff. Stuff that apparently mattered more to me than spending time with her, or respecting her time. Ugh.
So that was the feedback that I both did not want to hear, but also knew, probably, that [it] was coming. Yeah, so it was hard to hear because also, I hadn't felt like that was conscious for me, like making those kinds of assessments in my head. But she wasn't wrong, and you know, she was helping me to sort of bring that up, to bring that into consciousness. And she wasn't being rigid about it. It was fair feedback. It certainly was happening. So I had to take that in with a lot of self-compassion, because it was almost out of my awareness at the time, I think. So, you know, I needed that self-compassion both to be apologetic to her, for sure, and gentle with my own realization that I had just kind of missed this. I missed the ball on that one. So that feedback actually enhanced my self-awareness, which is part of the point here. And now that I have that self-knowledge, I am perfectly on time.
I was late to our recording session today. Hahaha.
[00:22:44] Henry Emmons, MD: Hahaha. I was gonna say, Aimee...
[00:22:46] Aimee Prasek, PhD: But I texted you and told you why.
[00:22:49] Henry Emmons, MD: You sure did.
[00:22:51] Aimee Prasek, PhD: But I am way better at it than I was in the past. I'm way more respectful, but I'm open to feedback on that, Henry, if you'd like to do that off the mic, we can have a conversation.
Hence the practice of Humility. It is a process.And it can be really helpful to have a loving support who can offer you some other insight, some other perspective. And I'll add as well, it feels really good to actually make my decisions in that way. So like, to not just focus on my time schedule, my to-do list, my interests; that sort of heavy self-focus. It's just too much me in there. When I'm thinking of other folks' time, then it just opens my world up immediately. Just that. Just that little notion of opening up to something other than myself. I feel a bit more connected just through that cognitive shift, and I can start to see the bigger picture when I'm making decisions; other decisions.
[00:23:49] Henry Emmons, MD: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, before we close, let me just add one little additional practical tip, for this practice of self-knowing. Keep a simple journal. Just a really, really simple journal. It doesn't have to be the details of what happened to you, but more what you noticed about yourself. So, you know, maybe just even once a week, just sit down and write a few observations from the week.
"I noticed I felt defensive when someone questioned what I was saying," or, "I noticed I felt energized after helping a friend or a neighbor. I noticed I avoided having that difficult conversation again." So, you know, no analysis, no judgment, simply noticing. And over time, you'll see some patterns emerge, and those patterns, if they're seen clearly and held gently, as we've been talking [about], they can really become the foundation for growth. That is humble self-knowledge. Not making yourself smaller, but seeing yourself clearly. And from that clarity, choosing who you wanna become, one small choice at a time.
[00:25:13] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah, one small choice at a time. I love that. That's a great practice.
If you're in the Joy Lab Program, head to your Experiment. you can certainly add that journaling practice, but we'll work through a kind of self-compassion, self-reflection practice that gets us through some of these obstacles, and that you can really do over and over again. You could integrate that journal exercise with it toward this lifelong journey of knowing yourself, uh, in this more loving and true way.
So next week, we are gonna check ourselves, which is hard, but not as terrible as it sounds. It is empowering. It's an essential part of growth. So be sure to tune in then.
Until then, I wanna leave us with some wisdom from Aristotle, who said, or wrote — I should — I don't know if it's a direct quote from Aristotle, you guys. No, Aristotle wrote stuff down. It was Socrates who didn't. Whew. I'm going off on a detour. Here it is.
"Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom."
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