237. We're Wired to Give, But Are You Giving Too Much?
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Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome back to Joy Lab.
Aimee Prasek: And I am Aimee Prasek, so we wanted to pop in with maybe a little something different today. We're at the end of our Month of Gratitude, our Element of Joy for November, and we're in the thick of what's sometimes called the giving season. And we wanted to kind of explore that a bit today in two specific ways. The first, how giving is good for us and how we're wired for it. And second, [00:01:00] how giving too much can be a problem. So there's this phrase we use a lot around here. You're wired for it. You're wired for the Elements of Joy that we talk about here and a lot of other really good stuff too that you're wired for, like giving. And maybe the sort of biochemistry or evolutionary understanding of that is when you do something kind for someone else, your brain releases dopamine and endorphins. This is sometimes called the helper's high. It's way better than the runner's high, I would say. 'Cause again, I do hate running, as we know. Um. And that feel-good effect keeps us motivated really to continue helping and continue building relationships with others connections, you know, these supportive, meaningful connections that, protect us in a lot of ways.
And so, even though giving is perceived as a selfless act, which I don't think is, [00:02:00] like, the true, that's not really quite true, right? A, a big reason why we give is because it feels good for us, as I just said. Helps us build relationships. It also can reduce stress, improve physical health. And here's a big one.
It can help take us out of, sort of a hyper self-focus. And we've talked about this earlier in the month, I'll link to some episodes. And that self-focus is usually a negative self-focus, I'll add that, isolates us. and giving can help kind of break us out of that.
Henry: Yeah, I think any, any, uh, anyone who's had a close encounter with something like depression or anxiety may have had this experience of, of really being unable to break out of this loop of self-focus or, or kind of negative self-absorption. And people
Aimee Prasek: Yes.
Henry: often describe it as actually one of the most painful [00:03:00] aspects of being in, in a state of depression, for example.
And I think the, the best word for that is probably rumination. You know, which is this. We all, we all know rumination, the churning over of the same kind of thought again and again. But in this case, usually the focus is on the self. And as you said, Aimee, it's usually a negative focus, at least when we're in that kind of mood state.
So it's this repetitive loop of thinking about oneself or one's life circumstances that is hard, hard to break out of, really hard to break out of. And I find it almost impossible to break this thought pattern simply by willing ourselves to stop it or through effort. And I don't think you can stop it at the level of thought or thinking.
I mean, the problem is [00:04:00] thinking and you just can't think yourself out of it. So I think it requires some form of action of doing something. And I think one of the quickest and most efficient kinds of action to get out of this self-focused state is to do something tangible for someone else other than yourself.
So giving of your time, your attention, your energy, your resources to another person is just good. For everyone, but it is mostly good for yourself in that, in that instance.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, it, I'm, I'm thinking back to an episode where we were talking about worrying and Henry said, you know, you no longer worry anymore, now you just ruminate, which just cracks me up. Anyway, so we did some episodes on worrying and rumination. So if what Henry just said resonated with you, I'll link to those in the show [00:05:00] notes. Yeah, giving is powerful to sort of help get us out of that ruminative endless cycle of, that self-focus. So giving is good for us. We're wired for it. Let's look to the other side. Now. Can you give too much? Yes. Is the answer. Henry, do you agree? You know, I didn't even, I didn't even ask. Do you agree?
Henry: I do agree. I do agree. Yeah. I don't think many of us are at risk for that, but I do, I do think it's, it's definitely, definitely possible.
Aimee Prasek: Okay. I'm glad we're on the same page. 'cause now we can, we can probably just keep going with this episode, otherwise we'd have to
Henry: Don't have to start over.
Aimee Prasek: Um, so, okay. So yes, you can give too much. Uh, I think there is this sort of pseudo-moral pressure though that wants us to say no as well. No, you can't give too much.
We talked [00:06:00] about this over the month too. It was some of the shoulds and pressures that we might get around gratitude and giving. But too much giving can be a problem. It's sometimes called pathological altruism. Uh, that's a term coined by Dr. Barbara Oakley, pathological altruism. I'm not sure if I like the term,
Henry: I'm not sure I do either,
Aimee Prasek: So, nonetheless.
Henry: but it does get the point across.
Aimee Prasek: It does kind of right. It's those times when we are giving, but the consequences are not good either for ourselves or others. I'll, I'm gonna give an example that I think that maybe can highlight this.
So when my great grandma, who we called Nanny when she was about 92, ah, she could no longer rototill her garden and all the things she did up until her 91st birthday. But she started to need more help. [00:07:00] And my grandma lived right across, the street of sorts. So, my grandma offered the care. She'd walk across that little dirt, dirt road and she would help nanny. We were here in Minnesota, they were in California, so we weren't really involved in the, in the day to day, or knew what was happening, but pretty soon nanny needed more care, but she refused to move out of her home or receive care from anyone else. So my grandma gave even more care, and at some point, she just hit the wall. My grandma hit the wall. She had injured her back trying to lift nanny, which is just boggles my mind. You have an 80-year-old trying to lift a 95-year-old. It just wasn't a great thing. And she was exhausted. It was just a Nanny needed so much help. My grandma was trying to take care of her own sort of property. She had a rental trailer and a pasture and a [00:08:00] orchard and all these things she was trying to take care of and tend to in her own kind of world. And then, and then her mom and she gave so much that it really wrecked her health. And then there they were, my grandma and Nanny. Like, Grey Gardens style, if anybody knows the reference, just both kind of suffering. One taking too much, really, from her daughter and the other, giving too much. Just these two ends of the spectrum, and I know it's not so simple. These equations of giving are tough, especially when caregiving is involved. My mom is in memory care. She's running outta money. It's just a mess. I get it. But I think the essential piece of this is to be thoughtful about these equations because even though giving is essential, as we just talked about, for us, it's essential for us, for our own health. Even though it's good for those around [00:09:00] us, it still falls into that nearly universal rule that bothers me. And it's that too much of a good thing is too much.
Henry: Mm.
Aimee Prasek: and. Like anything else as well? Giving has trade-offs. So if I, if I give you a thousand bucks, I then have a thousand less dollars. And that's not a scarcity mindset, that is math, right? I can believe that there is enough in this world for all of us, and I can believe that my life is and will be full of good stuff. And I can still know that if I give you a thousand dollars this month, then, you know, rewind my life not too long ago, I cannot afford my rent payment. That is real. But sometimes for a lot of different reasons, some of which might seem really good, we give more than we have. We give that last thousand dollars.
Maybe we stay at work too [00:10:00] long. Like with the good intention that we wanna have sort of it better for our family than we had maybe growing up, but then we're never home and don't connect with our family. So there's a trade off. And of course there are exceptions, times when we give more than maybe we have at a certain time for a really important reason. Like some of the caregiving efforts that happen when someone you love is sick, but there is a cap there. You can only pull from these depleted resources for so long. You can only miss your rent so many times before you get evicted. or sacrifice your sleep for so long before your own health suffers.
And when that starts happening, I think the gift is gone. There is no longer that gift.
Henry: Yeah. Yeah. I think, like you said, Aimee, too much of a good thing is still too much.
Aimee Prasek: Doggone it, it gets ya.
Henry: Yeah. But here, here's my challenge [00:11:00] with that.
Aimee Prasek: Let's hear it.
Henry: Um. I think it's, it's easier to see this if it's, if you're giving something really tangible, like a thousand dollars or,
Aimee Prasek: I know, that's why I gave example.
Henry: Yeah. But
Aimee Prasek: yes.
Henry: I think it's really hard to know when you're going too far with caregiving, for example, or, or just even giving of your e energy and your attention.
Um, it, it's, it's just; it requires such constant vigilance, awareness that I think it can really sneak up on us.
Aimee Prasek: Absolutely.
Henry: And so what that means is it's in our best interest to really learn to pay attention and to recognize we too have limits, you know, and, and when we're getting close to that, the one thing, what we don't want to do is to go too far so [00:12:00] that, health has really taken a hit and that's, sometimes that's hard to, hard to pull out soon enough to avoid that. I, I, I get that.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: Really clearly.
I also think that the notion of finding balance is kind of overrated,
Aimee Prasek: Yes.
Henry: Because, if it exists at all, perfect balance, it's only momentary.
Then the balance shifts in one direction or another. So in this case, you're giving too little or you're giving too much. And so, you know, without getting too wrapped up in all of this, we're just never gonna get it perfect. Because it's changing from moment to moment. And so it really helps to, to cultivate the ability to pay attention to our inner experience and learn to ask ourselves questions like, "What am I [00:13:00] feeling right now in this moment?", "What am I feeling?" And maybe asking yourself, "Am I doing too little or am I doing too much? Do I have enough still in reserve that I can give in this way?" There maybe there should even be a little extra in reserve. Am I getting depleted and, and recognizing and accepting that this is an ever-changing dynamic.
It, it just does not stay static at all.
But I think that there is also a, a paradox in all of this that's kind of hidden and that is that there really isn't much difference between giving and receiving.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: They seem like opposites. But I don't think they are. I think they're, they're just flip sides of the same coin.
So when we give and we have enough to give, and we're doing it out of a sense of gratitude and generosity, [00:14:00] we are getting back at least as much as we're giving out maybe more. If we're able to stay tuned in to what we're feeling inside of us, I think we'll see that. I think we'll know when it's, when it's right.
I think we'll be able to give out of that, that, you know, greater sense of, I have enough right now and, and I am, I really want to do this. And then also be able to take in the good stuff that we receive as a result of that.
Aimee Prasek: I love that 'cause you're taking a little bit of what could become kind of this transactional hypervigilance looking at the equation all the time. "How much am I giving?" Sort of this back and forth and just checking in with the inner experience. And then the call to be permeable, to receive as well. I just love that.
Um, I'm gonna put, I wanna put some episodes in about permeability. It's kinda the word we use around here instead of vulnerability.[00:15:00] Sometimes we use those two words interchangeably or with a little bit of a different, a shift on what we mean by being open, so that giving and receiving. I maybe then too, when we're checking in with the inner experience, I think it could be helpful to, you know, see how, how we're feeling, what that inner experience is, and maybe check in with a bit of the why that might arise. Like why are we giving. Um, you noted generosity, Henry. There's other reasons why we give, like, for example, I wanted a, I don't know why I love those fruit flavored Tootsie Rolls. And they're so sort of gross and waxy, but I don't know. I love 'em. And my daughter had some in her Halloween candy and I asked her for some. She's like, "Of course I will give you some." She scoops up some of these wonderful little colorful bits and I open my hands to receive this gift. And then she says, "Will you give [00:16:00] me a dollar for them?" I was like, um, no.
Henry: Shrewd businesswoman.
Aimee Prasek: So sometimes we don't give out of pure generosity. You know, maybe we're giving because we hope to receive something in return, like a dollar.
Henry: I love it when it's that clear, when it's, when it's made that clear.
Aimee Prasek: It was no game. She was very clear.
Um, but maybe we are giving with the hope that we will also be accepted by a certain group of people. Or we're struggling with our own self-worth. And so it feels really good to have somebody say to us, "Wow, you are so good. You are so generous." Maybe we're giving again, like with the hope of getting something in return, maybe not money, but um, status at work It's not that any of that is necessarily bad. I mean, some of that stuff is part of the purpose of giving and it's like a bit of that [00:17:00] relationship building, but wow. Is it helpful to check in on that "why" behind our giving? Particularly I think if it's becoming too much. So if you tuned in and that inner experience is, is signaling some exhaustion or stress, maybe tuning into that "why", because I think it can allow us to check some of our assumptions that we might have. You know, identify the trade-offs that might be occurring when we're giving, and determine if it's really worth it or like even logical in the sense that "Will this giving produce that benefit we're counting on?" And with that awareness, we can then determine if it really is helping anyone. At at times it's not. And I think being mindful in this way reminds us that we should be generous with our giving as well, which means, to your point, Henry, receiving, I think giving to ourselves, there's a beautiful balance, as you noted of [00:18:00] giving and receiving. So here we are amidst giving season and you're gonna get lots of asks. You'll get them from us too. We are a nonprofit. We are built for you. We are built by you. But check in with your resilience tank and with your resources. You know, if you're tuning into that inner experience, and it's, it's signaling some, some tense or, or anxiousness or exhaustion, like all of those signals that might be signaling that something is being pulled too much. And then give generously. For example, say maybe start by giving generously, generously giving yourself a break.
I know for me, when I was living paycheck to paycheck or overdraft fee to overdraft fee, as it was sometimes. I felt like kind of a jerk that I couldn't give money. Because I think so often it's sort of this idea of, you know, that is the only way to give in some [00:19:00] ways. Like I wasn't a compassionate person or a successful person or a generous person, or the kind of person I was imposing on myself if I couldn't donate money.
And I just wanna say, you are not a jerk. These giving messages don't need to squash you, let them remind you to give generously, which might mean giving more generous sleep to yourself or giving yourself, time with a hobby you've been ignoring or wanting to try, or more time with your kids, or shoveling your neighbor's walkway. Whatever. All of this is giving, there are so many ways to give. I'll give an example for us. One of the most powerful ways you can give to Joy Lab and to join in on this mission of building our individual and collective resilience, and spreading more joy is to simply tell someone about this podcast. Just tell one person about one episode [00:20:00] that you found helpful. For yourself or maybe an episode that you think they might be interested in. It is a simple way to open up a conversation around mental health with others, which I think is so important. It is an effective way to, to squash some stigma around mental health and to spread some joy.
So that's a generous way of giving too.
Henry: Yeah, reminds me, I mean, I just recently had a, a really nice conversation with, a, a new friend, someone I've just met who, who was telling me about how much she gets from these podcasts and how much she loves to be able to share it with others. And it just felt so good for me to hear that, to know that not only is it resonating with her in a helpful way, but she was inspired enough to spread the word with others.
And she shared one of her favorite quotes, which I wish I could remember. I'm gonna have to try to find it out. What, what I [00:21:00] do remember about it is, is this image that there are always, even in dark times, these little islands of light. I think that was what the quote said, these little islands of light that keep the darkness from being total.
And she was saying, without doubt, Joy Lab is one of those islands of light. And I just love that notion. And, and to me that was such a great example of, of her giving and me receiving it very fully, very gratefully. You know, it's the sort of thing that helps me keep my own tank filled up.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, those kind words. Islands of light. That is wonderful. So yeah, let's, um, give generously to create more islands of light, whatever that means to you during this season too. I think that's beautiful. So I hope this is helpful. If you've been feeling [00:22:00] overwhelmed with asks or, or feel like you've been giving too much or, or sort of not sure about that equation for you.
Am I giving enough? Am I giving too much? Whatever the case, there is a sweet balance here for each of us to navigate and we can do that. We have all the resources to do that. So to close us, I want to read something kind of different. This is a few lines from Sam Levenson's poem. Time Tested Beauty Tips is what it's called. Um, so weird. So Levenson was a writer and a comedian in the sixties, and I don't, there's something about this first half of this poem that I really think speaks to me anyway about giving and receiving. Here it is, " For attractive lips, speak words of kindness. For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people. For beautiful hair, let a child run his or her fingers through it once a day. For poise, walk with the knowledge that you'll [00:23:00] never walk alone. People, even more than things have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed, and redeemed. Never throw out anybody. Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm. As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands. One for helping yourself,
the
other for helping others."
Henry: I really like that.
Aimee Prasek: I do too.
too
Henry:
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