270. Check Yourself: Ego Threat, Stress Relief, & Needing to Prove Yourself
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[00:00:05] Henry Emmons, MD: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons, and welcome back to Joy Lab.
[00:00:11] Aimee Prasek, PhD: And I'm Aimee Prasek. We are in our Element of Humility, and we're checking ourselves. We're following humility researcher Dr. Daryl Van Tongeren's framework here, with the idea that humility includes knowing ourselves, checking ourselves, and going beyond ourselves. We talked about knowing ourselves last Episode. We'll go beyond ourselves next Episode. We're gonna check ourselves this Episode. Lordy, this is complicated. So there's a lot of intellectual, cultural, and existential humility that comes up here. I talked about that two Episodes ago. I'll link that in the show notes. So this is accepting that we don't know it all; accepting that we have our own cultural lenses that influence what we see and believe to be true; coming to accept uncertainty, that there are unknowable things and our guess might beas good as the next person's. And so the aim of checking ourselves is to recognize those things, and to cultivate a kind of curiosity and openness, a desire to learn more than confirm, and to lower our defenses without losing ourselves. And I say without losing ourselves, because I think that's a fear with humility. This idea that humble folks won't stand their ground, and that's just not true. Humility is not being pushover, or giving up. We check ourselves to see more clearly, and to connect more deeply, and to grow.
[00:01:50] Henry Emmons, MD: I really love the term existential humility.
[00:01:55] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Hee hee, I do too. Peak humility.
[00:01:59] Henry Emmons, MD: When I think about accepting uncertainty, it does sometimes feel like letting go of control. And when we become fearful, a lot of us try to grasp more tightly to control, right? It's one way of managing the fear of what might happen. It's not a very effective way of managing it usually. Which is why the practice of knowing ourselves that we focused on in the last Episode is so important, because if we see that that's what we're doing, we're trying to control things so tightly, we can learn a different way. And the practice of accepting uncertainty can be so good for us because it gently coaxes us to let go of control.
So I think this middle ground that Aimee's describing is really one of the hardest places to live in. It requires real inner strength, because you have to be secure enough in yourself to admit when you're wrong, or when you're trying to control the outcome, or whatever it is, but also secure enough to hold your ground when you need to, like Aimee was talking about.
So that is not weakness. It's the opposite of weakness. It's being rooted enough in your own worth that you don't need to defend every position. You don't have to win every argument. You don't have to prove yourself at every turn. Gosh, it sounds awful, doesn't it? It's — what a lot of work to do all of that. Hahaha.
[00:03:41] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah, we do a lot of work, to do that. Yep.
[00:03:43] Henry Emmons, MD: Yeah. Well, you know, when I actually practice this myself, I don't feel such a need to be defensive or control things, not because I don't care, but because my identity is not riding on being right.
[00:04:02] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah. Identity is not riding on being right, or being better than, or richer than, or faster than. Yeah. We hinted at the ego last Episode, but here is where it is taking, like, an all-star stage role here. So let's get into ego.
Ego might appear to be the enemy, or the opposite, of humility, and I don't think that's true. I think it can sort of appear to be. I think the ego gets a bad rap. I know some thinkers, researchers, clinicians who believe the ego is the root of all evil, like the root of all our mental health problems, and I can get why. I mean, so much of what stresses us out day to day — what you described, Henry — that looping tendency, that effort that we spend to protect ourself at all costs, it is a problem.
It's the cause of so many global wars, and internal struggle; the ins and outs. But it — that's the far-end of ego protection. When we're taking it too far, or when folks in power are taking it too far, it is a problem. Ideally, though, a healthy ego helps us maintain a coherent, positive sense of self. And I know the next argument might be that the self doesn't exist, hahaha, and I get that too. I mean, I don't know if I get that, but, like, I've heard that been said. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough to get it. I don't know. But I don't think we can actually get to that state — of what would be, I guess, dissolution of the ego, right? — until we've worked with our ego in a positive way. Even if you're, like, into psychedelics as a tool, which we won't get into now, we cannot reject [the ego]. It is something that we, I think, consciously need to befriend.
And when we befriend our ego, we also realize that it's really understandable that we're defensive when we get called out. It is a human pattern. Many of us were taught this [by] adults in our lives, pushing us toward performance or confirmation, rather than curiosity or exploration. Maybe you were taught that your self-worth is determined by others' opinions of you; others' judgments. Media trains us here, too, that being wrong is not okay, that you can't change your mind, that being called out will ruin you. Because the point of the ego is to make sense of ourselves, and we want, like, a Hallmark story here too. We want predictable characters, storyline, happy ending, no surprises. So when criticism, mistakes, uncertainty enter the frame, then a stress response is activated. These kind of shake our sense of self, and so we get defensive, which is simply a quick response of self-protection.
It's sometimes called ego threat. And when ego threat happens, we often go into cognitive distortions — you were hinting to this, Henry — and they can come rapidly, into black-and-white thinking, often. We start to think in extremes and absolutes. We start to get really focused, and cling to certainty, like — thirsty for these kinds of unambiguous beliefs that can comfort us, and then we seek out confirmation rather than truth, perhaps. We seek out what confirms our beliefs so that we can ease some of this discomfort. We can get really rigid in our thinking as a strategy to bring back a sense of that coherent self and reduce our stress response. We all do this. It is common. We're kind of wired for it, and so it all makes sense. It's totally normal. And it doesn't have to happen so often. And when it does, it doesn't have to take us down. So we don't need to — I don't think we need to — reject the ego, or work toward that. Instead, we can use humility to reduce our ego threat. Because when your identity, as you said, doesn't depend on being right, or being the best, or being better than average, or avoiding criticism, then incoming challenges don't register as much as threats. They can register as information. So it's a shift from threat response to a curiosity response, and that's where so much of the mental health benefits kind of live. Less defensiveness, less anxiety, less shame; more openness, more resilience, more genuine connection.
[00:08:41] Henry Emmons, MD: Yeah, I agree with you, Aimee, the ego is misunderstood, and I think especially at times, in spiritual circles. So the ego is not the enemy. It's just doing its job, and its job is to create a coherent sense of self, 'cause, you know, most of us are not yet able to say "there is no self." Most of us, we're actually working to create a coherent sense of self. And its job also is to protect you from threats, to help you navigate a very complex social world. I mean, let's be real. It's incredibly complex out there. And if you think about it, the ego's actually pretty good at its job. The problem is not the ego itself. The problem is when the ego is running the whole show. If it's in the driver's seat making all of the decisions based on fear — the fear of being diminished, or criticized, or shown to be wrong — then you've got a problem.
So I like to think of it like this: the ego is like a very zealous bodyguard. It is constantly scanning for threats, and when it sees one, or thinks that it sees one — remember it can be wrong — it jumps into action. Sometimes that's helpful. If someone is genuinely attacking you, you want that protection. But often, the ego overreacts. Someone questions your idea and the ego treats it like a life or death threat. Someone suggests you made a mistake and the ego goes into full defense mode: deflect, deny , counterattack. Humility doesn't do away with the bodyguard. It just teaches the ego to relax a little bit; to recognize that, you know, most of the time you're actually quite safe. Being wrong is not the end of the world. Changing your mind is a sign of growth, not weakness. And you can even thank the ego for trying to protect you, and then gently tell it, "I've got this. You can stand down now."
[00:11:18] Aimee Prasek, PhD: I love that. Yeah, like who's the boss of the bodyguard? Like, don't let the bodyguard rule over you. I love that. You named some signs too, Henry, I wannahighlight those for a moment. Like, let's — before we dig into some strategies here, let's note what we can actually look out for, when the bodyguard has overstepped. Really common ones, I think you noted a few of these: counterattacking, you noted; deflection, denial; blame shifting. So our ego's like trying to push the information away. The bodyguard's just like shoving people, "out' the way, out' the way."
Some subtler ones might be shutting down; intellectualizing, over-intellectualizing; overexplaining. That's mine. Real good at that one. People-pleasing, to avoid conflict. These kind of feel like rumination to me as well, the subtler ones. Like you're stuck in traffic just looping around trying to, like, just almost wait for it to be done. It's a little bit of a freeze response, at times here. And really common, we might double down on a belief to avoid the discomfort of uncertainty, which is like slamming your brakes in the middle of the traffic circle. You know? Just like, "I am not going anywhere. Y'all can go around me" — refusing to move, refusing to grow, right? It just shuts us down, shuts any movement down. And so we might lean toward a few [of these]. We might use them all. They're super common responses that we can notice — notice, observe, to cue to us that maybe we need to check ourselves.
[00:13:07] Henry Emmons, MD: Mm-hmm. You know, I'll add a few other things to watch for, 'cause I think it's easy to miss them or misinterpret them. So sometimes it helps to notice physical sensations, that when you're feeling attacked, vulnerable; like you have to protect yourself, there can literally be a tightness in the chest. You know, you can feel the heat rising in your face, your jaw is clenched,your breathing is shallow. Your body often knows that you're in ego threat before your mind is aware of it. It just reacts, almost instantaneously. Also, there could be a sense of urgency, like suddenly feeling like you have to respond. You've gotta correct this immediately; set the record straight. The stories you tell yourself, "They always do this. Nobody appreciates what I do. If I don't stand up for myself, they'll walk all over me," those kinds of things .
So notice when you're spinning narratives that just serve to justify your reactions; the need to have the last word; that compulsion to make sure your point is heard , understood, acknowledged. So again, it's just noticing these things. Not having to fix them, not judging yourself for them, just noticing them is the first step. Once you see the pattern, then you have a choice. Before you see it, you don't have a choice. You're just reacting in the moment.
[00:14:48] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah. Thanks for emphasizing, sort of like, this physical reaction and these literally, like reactions, and they're so common. So again, if you're nodding your head like, "Oh God, I do that," great! There's some self-awareness. You are not alone. Literally all of us are like, mmh — like if we just took a moment to check ourselves, we could probably nod [yes] to all of those in some situations. Again, it's not a bad thing, it's an opportunity to practice humility. So we can create some space, and then humility can offer some relief.
And what's so wild about this is that, I think, [despite] all of this energy to protect ourselves, as we're describing, it can be really unhelpful. It is exhausting. It does take a lot of energy — like physical energy, as you describe — these stress responses continually activating. So when we're able to stand down, to disarm the bodyguard, we can soften the system. We can literally get a physical break, [which] I think is helpful, and then [get] some space in the mind. We can practice some humility, and we actually get some really great benefits.
So, some examples: folks who admit to mistakes are generally more liked and respected by others, compared to those who don't admit their mistakes. We all kind of nod, but you know, again, these are things that we might have a tendency to do — to not admit those mistakes. But as we're able to do that, to step into a little bit of permeability, we're able to cultivate some connections.
Humility can also build a kind of psychological safety within yourself, and in your relationships, so that small harms that happen aren't so likely to turn into an earthquake, or crash your system, or collapse a relationship; so the harm doesn't get blown out of proportion, or fall into as many of those thought distortions, like generalizing, or black and white thinking, or the piling on of all these other judgments, on top of the harm.
So humility really is a resilience-boosting kind of protective factor. It also helps separate self-worth, and others' worth, from performance. We talked a lot about that, because we all make mistakes. We all screw up. Humility helps us still see that we have worth amidst those mistakes or those harms, and so do others.
[00:17:17] Henry Emmons, MD: Mhmm. So here's a simple practice that helps me when I start feeling like I have to protect myself. First, pause. Even if it's just a few seconds, just a little pause. You don't have to respond immediately, even if it feels urgent. In fact, the more urgent it feels, probably the more important the pause is.
Second, take a breath. Literally take a breath. One slow, deep breath. Even that — especially if you've practiced awareness of breathing — just doing that one, good mindful breath gives your brain a chance to come back online so you're not just reacting from the amygdala, you know, the part of your brain that sends out the alarm.
Third, ask yourself, "What would I think about this if I weren't feeling defensive?" Or sometimes I ask, "What would I tell a friend in this situation?" Just that simple question, "What would I think if I weren't being defensive?" can create a little bit of space to shift from that threat response to a curiosity response. And now, you still might disagree. You might actually still decide to hold your ground on this, but even then, you'll do it from a more solid, grounded place; not a reactive — emotionally reactive one, and that can really make a difference.
[00:19:04] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah. I'll add to that, something that really helps me — because, you noted these physical reactions — is what we've talked about in previous Episodes. Just some supportive touch. So the hands, like, stacking over someplace on your body. You can do this in the moment. It doesn't have to be obvious. It could just be over your stomach. It could be that you just kind of hold your hands gently, but in a loving way. And when this happens to me, I just — I place those hands on my body in such a way, and in a loving way, giving myself the opportunity to just take a breath, as you said, Henry. But to feel that support of that touch, like "it's okay." Like a parent, or an adult who you would, you know — imagine would come to you, and give you that loving touch. Or whoever would give you a loving touch, to support you when you're feeling a little out of sorts, dysregulated, fearful, scared. And then I don't worry about what comes next necessarily, because if I'm able to do that, I'm able to find the exit from the — from the traffic circle, usually.
And sometimes, it's just getting out of the circle. It doesn't have to be a response or reaction, because I'm not worried about, as we've talked about today, being right or proving my point. I can just kind of drive on my way.
So if you're in the Program, this week is — this [week's] Experiment is really about working with this ego. So head over there after this and start working on that Experiment.
To close our time today, I wanna share some wisdom from Tara Brach. Some encouragement, I think, to befriend that bodyguard. Here's what she said: "The ego is not your enemy, it is your partner. Make peace with it."
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