275. You Are Not Your Thoughts: Cognitive Defusion for Confidence & to Change Your Relationship With Self-Critical Thoughts
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[00:00:05] Henry Emmons, MD: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons, and welcome back to Joy Lab.
[00:00:10] Aimee Prasek, PhD: And I'm Aimee Prasek. We are in our Element of Confidence right now, and we're digging into the step of cognitive defusion, or unhooking from our thoughts, as a really important strategy to build Confidence. We actually work a lot on this here at Joy Lab. We often use that strategy of the observing self, where we can notice our thoughts, our feelings, but not let them hook us; not fuse with these thoughts, not let them tell the whole story, or define us, or take us down so often. And we've done Experiments in the Program [where] we imagine ourselves sort of sitting on the bank of a river and watching the thoughts go by, or our thoughts like clouds in the sky and watching them float by, which are all great strategies to use.
But I wanna be real. When I was really struggling a few decades ago, my thoughts were not like branches going down a peaceful stream. Even today, there are days when my thoughts are more like a wave pool. That's kind of the metaphor that jumps for me. Henry, have you been to a wave pool?
[00:01:30] Henry Emmons, MD: I don't think so. I'm trying to visualize it. I assume... I assume it can get pretty... agitated? Hahaha.
[00:01:38] Aimee Prasek, PhD: They are terrifying.
[00:01:40] Henry Emmons, MD: Oh, really?
[00:01:41] Aimee Prasek, PhD: At least in my experience. I feel like I β
[00:01:44] Henry Emmons, MD: Do you pay to go to these? Hahaha.
[00:01:46] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Oh my God. No, I don't pay anymore. I don't know. I mean, I must've had at least two near-death experiences at Bunker Hills Wave Pool in Minnesota in the late '80s, for real. Like, waves crashing; way too many kids. The occupancy must have been exceeded. Tubes flying around and just, like, you're just this little bobber, like submerging, and coming up, and down. Oh, God. Terrifying. I'm sure they're better now, but I sometimes think of myself as, like, sort of a seasoned lifeguard β that observing self β like a seasoned lifeguard, compared to a peaceful observer on the bank of a stream; with the knowledge that that lifeguard has my back. They're noticing and they're helping. They're there to keep me safe, and that might be helpful when you're just getting overwhelmed with thoughts. Just kind of... it's just a perspective shift. You know, thoughts like, "I'm never gonna get this. I'm gonna embarrass myself. I always screw up when it matters. Everyone's gonna think I'm an imposter or stupid. I'm gonna feel like this forever." All these thoughts can come in so fast, like those crazy wave pools; you feel like you can't get a breath. They can really take you down. Your stress response surges and this thought like, "How am I gonna get out of this?" becomes the only thing you can think about. And for sure, seeking out extra support β like a therapist, another licensed practitioner, a friend, the NAMI helpline, SAMHSA, texting or calling 988 to chat β like, getting extra support if you're feeling submerged in those thoughts can be super helpful.
For our work with Confidence, you can see how these thoughts, these common self-critical thoughts like these, can be really tough. They absolutely won't feed any kind of confidence. That's not what they're designed to do. I mean, imagine yourself in the wave pool. Is it great to feel confident when you're, like, surrounded by 10,000 children screaming and waves are crashing you? No. Your confidence is, like, done and your stress is like, "Get me out of here. This is dangerous." That's accurate.
So, as I said last Episode, the actions of confidence come first. Taking actions toward confidence can feel impossible, absolutely, when you're riding all of these self-critical thoughts. So we have to practice getting some space from our thoughts, and truly β at least in my case and what I see from all the research β we can change the relationship with, and often the intensity and frequency of those waves, these thoughts, these self-destructive thoughts. And interestingly, when we stop fusing or fighting with them, they do start to get smaller in time with practices like the ones we focus on here at Joy Lab.
[00:04:52] Henry Emmons, MD: Yeah. You mentioned the term cognitive defusion, and I think what you're describing right now is cognitive fusion, you know, which is what we wanna loosen up. And really I think that's accurate, an accurate description, 'cause fusion means that you're stuck to your thought. You could also use the word adhesion. It's like your thought is glued to you. You know, that "I'm gonna embarrass myself," or whatever it is. [It] doesn't feel like a thought at that moment. It feels like a fact or a prediction, based on all kinds of evidence that's the truth about what will happen.
And so when you're fused with a thought like that, your whole nervous system responds as though it is true. Your heart rate rises, your palms get sweaty. You start making decisions based on that fused belief, like avoidance, or canceling plans, or not speaking up. But the thought is not the reality. It is just a thought. Your brain generated it, probably based on past experience, or fear, or patterns that have gotten ingrained, but it is not a fact about the future. It's just a thought that has you very tightly in its grip in that moment. So cognitive defusion is this process of loosening the grip that that thought has on you. It is creating some space between you and the thought. And the space is where you can get some freedom from it. When you defuse yourself from a thought, you're basically saying, "This is a thought I'm having. It is not the truth. It is not a prediction. It is just neural activity in my brain." And I think what's remarkable is that the moment you create that space, the thought loses most of its power. Even if it doesn't go away, it can still be there, but because you are no longer fused with it, you don't treat it as the truth.
This is really different from trying to think positive thoughts or trying to challenge whether the thought is true, and those are strategies that can β they have been proven to be helpful sometimes. I'm not dissing those strategies at all. But I think that this practice of defusion is more fundamental because you're not fighting the thought, you are truly changing your relationship with it. So think of it like this. If you're sitting in a theater watching a scary movie and you forget that it's a movie, you can really feel terrified. But the moment you remember, "Oh, that's right, this is just a movie. These are actors. This isn't real," it allows you to relax, [though] the images are the same. The images on the screen [are] the same, but your relationship to them has changed, and I think that's what we mean by defusion.
[00:08:25] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. Defusion gives us the bigger perspective. We can see that we have thoughts, but we are more than our thoughts. In Acceptance and Commitment [Therapy] strategies, there's this distinction between self-as-content, and self-as-context. I think this is really interesting.
So self-as-content is our perspective when we're stuck in that wave pool. We're like in all the waves. Waves of self-judgment are hitting us. Waves of past mistakes. Waves made up of these generalized stories we tell ourselves like, "I always screw this up. I'm gonna feel like this forever. Nobody gets me," et cetera. All these big waves that are nearly impossible to constantly swim through, and they're all that we can see. And to keep going with this wave pool metaphor, there are lots of stress reduction techniques that can help us when we're stuck in that pool, but they're kind of like just inner tubes. We're able to ride those waves better, our head stays above water more often, but we still have to hang on and ride those waves. So those are not worthless practices, but we can also get a bit more space from the waves, a bit more relief. That's the point of this defusion.
And self-as-context, as opposed to content, self-as-context is one of those strategies really. It's that observing-self or that lifeguard role. With self-as-context, you can watch and say, "Whoa, those are big waves. Ooh, I've seen that wave before." Or, "Hmm, every time that wave hits, I respond like this." So you in that role, you can see it. You can see the bigger picture; the context. There's you, but there's also what's happening around you. You're more than those thoughts. And with that space, you can give yourself some true support. You can maybe see, "ah, it's okay." You're safe. These waves are uncomfortable, but they're gonna die down. Or you might blow the whistle and make a change. You could throw yourself a tube. Maybe you need to get out of the pool, you know, get out of the situation for a bit. And you can do that without berating yourself for quitting or giving up, but with the self-compassion and wisdom that a bit of extra space, and a bit of support, has offered you.
And maybe you go back into the pool after you dry up and fuel up, you know, after 30 minutes for digestion. And that's our power right there. Your noticing β in that bigger perspective, in that bigger context β it allows you to see what's really happening, and then you can take much wiser actions and build your sense of confidence.
[00:11:21] Henry Emmons, MD: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really like your metaphor about the stress management techniques, and the being like an inner tube. It's a life raft or something; super important at times, really helpful, and yet it's not necessarily fundamentally changing the relationship. So let me dig into that a little bit more. I think stress management is great and sometimes, you know, it's just so helpful doing breathing exercises, meditation exercise, sleep. I mean, obviously these things are all super important; [they] can be really helpful, and they do allow us to kind of feel calmer, you know, the nervous system can calm down. It gives you more resources, which, you know, we do need more inner resources. But if we're relying only on that, we're still in a reactive mode. We're still trying to manage, you know; reduce the discomfort. And it's an awful lot of work. It just is. I know. I've been there and I've done it for a long, long time. And it works until it doesn't. Until you're in a situation where you cannot breathe your way out of [it], or exercise your way out of [it]. The waves are just too big for those inner tubes.
And I do think that what we're talking about with defusion is a different thing. It's a different level. 'Cause when we can defuse, when we can separate ourselves from this thinking mind that we have, then we're not trying to just reduce the discomfort; we're not trying to make the thoughts go away. You're stepping into that role of a lifeguard, as you said, and from there you can see things a lot more clearly. I like the lifeguard thing on the beach, you know, when they're sitting up in those little towers and they have a view, right? They're β it's a little bit of a higher view of what's going on. I think of that very much when I think of the observing self. It's got a little higher perch, so to speak.
So, let me bring up something else that I see a lot, which is perfectionism that can keep us fused with our thoughts. So if you're someone who believes that to be confident you need to be perfect, that you can't make mistakes, you need to have all the answers or whatever, you're going to be hypervigilant about your thoughts. So you're gonna take this practice we're describing and try to β and overdo it, essentially. So you'll scrutinize every thought for weakness or inadequacy, and try really hard to think only the right thoughts, and I can just tell you that's not gonna go well. ' Cause ironically, trying too hard to do this will keep you fused with your thoughts, 'cause you're paying intense attention to them. Trying to control them is not gonna work. You're making them too important by doing that.
And the truth, really β the truth here is you do not have to be perfect. The sooner you accept that you'll make mistakes, that you will have doubts, that sometimes you will say the wrong thing, then the sooner you can defuse from those thoughts about those things. Because if you're not trying to be perfect, then having an imperfect thought, like a doubt or a fear, is not a big deal. It's just a thought; nothing more than that, and it's something you can just let pass right through your conscious awareness. And I think that's really where this practice of defusion gives us freedom.
[00:15:32] Aimee Prasek, PhD: I love that description. And to highlight perfectionism is very helpful. So let's dig into some strategies. You know, we talked about stress management strategies β all of these things are options β and with defusion, it's another one and it's helping in a different way. Henry, you also noted cognitive restructuring, like CBT practices, sort of, you know, questioning the thought. So there's lots of ways to do this, so it could be all helpful. We're not putting any shade on those practices. But we're gonna focus on some of these strategies that are a little bit more aligned with confidence building and that can be super helpful in the moment β like in the heat of the moment when you're like, "Hmm, I am not feeling confident." You know, what we're dealing with when it comes to confidence is maybe a history, or past experiences, that have been really uncomfortable. For example, maybe you just froze in a public speaking situation. Or I gave an example in last Episode of a terrible interview I had, like real bad.
[00:16:38] Henry Emmons, MD: Yeah, it was... it was bad, Aimee. Hahaha.
[00:16:40] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Real bad. Definitely didn't get it. You know, so like, all of these sensations of fear. You felt those things. You remember the knots in your stomach, lump in your throat, racing heart, and you, you know, didn't say what you wanted to. So in this situation, even though it's not true that this will always happen β that you'll always freeze or that you will absolutely bomb the interview β you do have some evidence that it certainly could happen, 'cause it definitely did, and it likely will again if you can't do some practicing, right?
So you can try practices that position yourself more in that observing self or lifeguard role β not there to dispute the content, not there to say whether or not the thought is true, but to notice it and loosen its grip. And one strategy of observation can be to simply name it, but with some distancing; actually using the words, here it is, "I'm noticing that I'm having the thought that..." And then you fill in the rest. "I'm gonna blow this interview," or, you know, "I'm gonna epically fail in that conversation" or whatever, whatever. So that first phrase can offer a little bit of what's called psychological distancing from the thought. You're positioning yourself as the observer with that statement. You move from, "I'm gonna blow it tomorrow," to, "I'm noticing that I'm having the thought that I'm gonna blow it tomorrow." And then just feel what you feel. Notice if any sensations arise, and let them move through you. They're just attached to that thought, and like a wave, they will pass. And that thought will come again, and you can again say, "Oh, oh, again, I am noticing that I am having the thought that..." And we wanna practice this in more low-stakes situations so that we can do it on the fly when it matters. So don't start practicing, you know, in the wave pool if you can help it. Start in the kiddie pool. Put your water wings on. And just to add some levity, when you observe the thought, you can say the phrase in the silliest voice you can. I know it sounds weird, but it can strangely be helpful. So several times, again and again, singing in a funny tune, or in a silly voice, or as a sports commentator, or a narrator, or like a hilarious romance novel narrator, whatever might make you laugh, repeat that phrase in that voice or in that way. It's a simple way to create psychological distance; to unhook from the thought a bit and actually take some of its power away.
You know that voice that says, "In a world..." that's β there's a great movie where this woman tries to be that voice. I can't remember, but that's β so that's the one I sometimes use. So it's, "In a world where I'm noticing that I'm having the thought that I'm gonna blow it again tomorrow."
[00:19:56] Henry Emmons, MD: Hahaha. Oh, I love your strategy, Aimee. I β here's just a slight tweak or addition. It kind of follows the levity or the silliness thing, which I do think is really helpful.
[00:20:09] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah.
[00:20:09] Henry Emmons, MD: You could call this the "thank you brain" technique. So here's how this would work. When you notice a thought, especially one of those catastrophic kind of thoughts, you simply say β and you can do this out loud if you want or just say this internally β you just say this: "Thank you, brain." That's it. Just that. Don't need to do anything more. Why does this work? Well, it immediately positions you as the observer. You're thanking your brain as if your brain is separate from you, which in a sense it is, 'cause your brain is generating thoughts and you are the one observing those thoughts.
Second, it's a paradox. We spend so much energy fighting our thoughts, or arguing with them, or trying to make them go away. "Thank you brain" is the opposite of that. You're acknowledging the thought without resisting it, and resistance actually keeps you fused with the thought. Acceptance, which you're doing here, creates that space we've been talking about.
And then third, there's something a little bit humorous or funky about this, and you can even add a little tone of appreciation. "Oh, brain, you're trying so hard to protect me. Thank you, brain." And there's just that little hint of humor, a little shift in tone β [which] is defusing it right then and there. So here's an example. Let's say you're about to give a presentation and the thought arises, "Everyone's gonna see that you don't know what you're talking about." So instead of arguing or trying to suppress it, you can just say, "Thank you, brain. I see that you're trying to protect me from humiliation. I appreciate that." And then you take a breath, you walk up to the podium, you give your presentation. The thought is still there. Your brain is still trying to protect you, but you are not fused with it anymore. It's no longer driving your actions, and that's really the skill of confidence that we're trying to build.
[00:22:32] Aimee Prasek, PhD: I love that. I love that appreciation to ourselves.
[00:22:38] Henry Emmons, MD: Well, it is true. The brain's job is to protect us.
[00:22:42] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah.
[00:22:43] Henry Emmons, MD: It just β in doing so it can narrow our world in ways that [it] just doesn't really serve us.
[00:22:50] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Absolutely. So yeah, "thank you, brain" and... I shall do something else, perhaps. Yeah, that's great. I love it. Thank you, brain. So this is a skill we're building. I love that it's not about forcing a feeling. It's not about trying to stop or suppress any thoughts or feelings. It's about letting those things matter less.
Our talk about right-sizing ourselves last Element with Humility is coming back to me. There's something about letting these thoughts kind of right-size themselves; take up the space they need, no more, no less, and then let them make their way out as well. And that space, that energy that opens up to us, gives us some room to take some actions to build up our confidence. We can choose where to put our energy. So we'll get into that a lot more next Episode as we dig into our values, what we care about, so that we can make choices, and take action, and build up our skill of Confidence and the feelings that come from that.
To close our time today, I wanna share some wisdom from Eckhart Tolle describing why this power, this skill of defusion, is so important. Here's what he wrote: "The mind is a superb instrument if used rightly. Used wrongly, however, it becomes very destructive. To put it more accurately, it is not so much that you use your mind wrongly β you usually don't use it at all. It uses you."
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