221. "The Opposite of Play is Not Work, The Opposite of Play is Depression."
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Aimee Prasek: ~Hey, Ellie. Uh, this is gonna be the probably, um, the first episode for August, so probably 2 21. The opposite of play is depression. All right. I think, hold on. Sorry. You know what I forgot to do is just check your settings real quick. Henry~
Henry: ~Oh, you want me to talk?~
Aimee Prasek: ~No, you're good.~
Henry: ~I'm good.~
Aimee Prasek: ~Uh, Scarlet, Scarlet. Ellie, just to note, um, I feel like you're having to turn Henry's volume up a whole lot, which might be solved with our, when we get new equipment, but, um,~
Henry: ~I think my gain is turned up pretty much all the way.~
Aimee Prasek: ~do you have that air button on? Does it say air and it's got like an orange?~
Henry: ~Yep. Should that be on or off?~
Aimee Prasek: ~Let's take it off.~
Henry: ~Okay. It's off.~
Aimee Prasek: ~Let's see if that helps.~
Henry: ~Okay.~
Aimee Prasek: ~Check, check, check. I feel like I'm loud enough. All right, let's go for it.~
Henry: ~Yep. Ready? Okay.~ Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome back to Joy Lab.
Aimee Prasek: And I am Aimee Prasek. So this month we are talking about our Element of Fun. ~Um, ~We also use play a common theme in this Element. ~Um, ~to get into this Element of Fun, we're actually going to dig into the opposite of depression. So maybe when I say that you think, oh, it's happiness, and I think that's absolutely the immediate response that pops when we think about what the [00:01:00] opposite of depression might be, but I don't think that's true. Kind of get into that today. I wanna do one more though. What do you think is the opposite of play or fun? I think most of us would say work. Yeah, but maybe not. So, ~uh, ~here's what the late play researcher Dr. Brian Sutton-Smith proposed. He said the opposite of play is not work. The opposite of play is depression. And I think this is really interesting. The less we play, the more depressed we are. That's kinda what he's saying. I think that's true. There's a bunch of research here that these two things are inversely or negatively correlated. So as your play decreases, your chances of mental health issues increases essentially. And related, there's quite a lot of research around playing [00:02:00] less and having a lower internal locus of control. And this matters because having a stronger internal locus of control means that we feel more agency or some control in our lives;~ um,~ control in the events that happen to us. We feel like we have some influence over what happens. The opposite of that, a low or weak internal locus of control is associated with depression. And I get it, there might be some chicken or egg questions here. Like, is a lack of play causing some of the depression, or is the depression causing a lack of play? Which, good questions, but when folks engage in play, self-reported depression decreases and internal locus of control increases.
Other good stuff happens too. So whether depression or the lack of play came first, it is true that engaging in play in some kind of fun activity, usually [00:03:00] with others, can actually be used as a treatment, a tool to decrease depression and improve mental health. It can't do all the work, of course, we're not saying that, but it is one of the tools available to us that does make an impact. So I don't think Sutton-Smith is making a wild statement here. I would agree that at least one of the opposites of depression is play. So what do you think, Henry is Sutton-Smith onto something?
Henry: Yeah, I think so. I think it's hard to be depressed while you are playing.
Aimee Prasek: Right?
Henry: While you're having fun. It, it really, ~it's,~ it's, it's as if they are mutually exclusive. And I am quite sure that this is not only a psychological thing. I think it's also physiological. I think it involves the body. Play is one of the best ways to hit that dopamine button that we've [00:04:00] talked about before.
Dopamine, you know, is ~the~ sometimes called the pleasure chemical. And when I am evaluating someone with depression, it's the loss of pleasure that I consider to be one of the two really key criteria for depression. The other, of course, is the mood, ~the, the,~ the mood being low, which might not always feel the same from person to person, but it's a, a bad mood and otherwise. So when I evaluate someone and we are trying to rule out depression,
if I hear that they're still able to enjoy things, if they're still able to have fun, then I'm gonna start looking for some other explanation for why they're feeling like they are, 'cause I don't think that they have depression.
But there are so many more things about play that benefit our physiology.
It boosts the creativity channels in the brain. It helps tone [00:05:00] down the stress system, you know, the autonomic nervous system. It helps us release these pent up emotions that are, you know, the negative emotions that we are otherwise carrying. And I think most importantly, it helps us grow our sense of connection because when we play, like you said Aimee, we are usually doing it with others. We have playmates.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah. Yeah. I love actually thinking about playmates as adults. I'll just say Playboy stole the term from us. We
Henry: gosh, they did, didn't they?
Aimee Prasek: God, we need to take it back. Take it back, and think about who our playmates are as adults. I like, I do like the word because it also makes me think of social animals. We talk about how important it is for social animals in the wild or captivity to have playmates and social bonds. We are social animals. And even solitary [00:06:00] animals, ~um, like~ evolutionary biologists have found that solitary mammals, like the giant kangaroo rat, which those of you in California or Southern US might know, they are an example of a solitary animal that we're realizing aren't quite so solitary. I'm gonna go on a tangent here.
I think this is so interesting, these rats and so many other solitary, we have a pest problem in our house. I think that's why I'm on a ~rest~ rat thing now. Sorry. Or it's a mouse thing. I'm, I'm trying to appreciate ~the,~ the wisdom and beingness of these animals. So these giant kangaroo rats, which I don't think are in our house, but another, I hope not God. But you know, other solitary mammals actually do have some social relationships that ~e. That, you know, are,~ are part of their existence, but also they form ~neighborhoods,~ kind of these neighborhoods where even if they live alone, their family members live nearby and they share [00:07:00] resources as a community.
Henry: Really, that's kind of sweet.
Aimee Prasek: Adorable. I know. Maybe we have little rat neighborhoods around our home where they're congregating for rituals or sharing resources. Which is terrifying in some ways. But,~ um,~
I just, I, I think it's so interesting that even the solitary mammals know that they need each other. ~They go it alone in a lot of ways. Um, or, well, let me, let me try to tie this one. Hold on. Yes. Okay. So.~ So again, another thing that I find interesting there is that when researchers look back generations these mammals actually weren't so solitary.
They often lived in at least pairs. So it's like this weird hiccup in our mammalian timeline where for whatever reason, some of us mammals had to go out on our own or felt like we had to go out on our own. And I think humans are the pinnacle example here. We do often feel like we have to go it [00:08:00] alone, like no help, no play, just me against the world, self-made, all this kind of solitary BS. And that way of thinking is actually bad news when it comes down to survival. Our basic physical needs are more likely to be met when we work together, when we play together. But yet so often we work alone or we feel like we have to. Thinking we need to one up each other or get our slice of the pie.
And if we don't have playmates, if we don't play, our emotional health suffers too. So we work alone, we overwork alone, and then we don't play. I really think this is a recipe for depression and for anxiety.
Henry: Well, since you brought up social animals, Aimee, I'm going to jump to one of my favorite rat studies of all time.
Aimee Prasek: Oh no. This is the rat episode.
Henry: Yep. It's the rat episode. Very appropriate given your, your problem [00:09:00] in your house.
Aimee Prasek: I know. I'm feeling it. Let's go.
Henry: So this study really isn't directly about play, but, but hear me out. It's a study about neurogenesis. So, I need to give a little background here.
Neurogenesis refers to the birth of new brain cells. Yeah, the brain is making new cells all the time. It never stops. In fact, I find this super interesting, the earliest studies that really proved that ~human,~ the human brain was creating these new neurons, they were done on people who were in hospice care.
~Um, ~And the reason for that is because these, they were, they needed to look at the brain after death in order to ~kind of ~prove this. So, so these were mostly older folks and they're obviously very sick at the end stages of their lives. And what they found is that in the last weeks of life, they [00:10:00] were producing tons of new brain cells, even these people who were ~terminally,~ terminally ill.
And,~ um,~ and ~this,~ so this is happening really throughout our lives. We sometimes have the notion that brain growth and development stops at age 20, I think 26 now is the... ~it,~ the brain is largely formed by that time, but the, but it's never done changing and growing and creating new pathways. But right now we're talking about creating actual new brain cells.
So the brain is giving birth to new cells. But in order for these cells to survive and to thrive, they need to do a couple of important things. One of them is that they, they need to branch out. They send out these little projections called dendrites, ~that are,~ that they ultimately will attach to other brain cells.
And ~so there's this in, ~in, in order for the cell to survive, they have to branch out and they have to [00:11:00] connect with enough other brain cells or they just wither up and die. Very good analogy for us. There is a brain chemical ~that~ that really facilitates this whole process ~of,~ of ~growth.~ growth and sending out these little roots or branches. It's called BDNF or brain derived neurotrophic factor. Neurotrophic really means nerve growth. I think of it as miracle grow for the brain. The more of it we have, the better the chances that our new brain cells are going to thrive. So we want this and we want it ~as~ in as robust a fashion as possible. So it is known that there are several really key factors that promote this BDNF.
And here are the most important ones, some of the most important ones. One is [00:12:00] diet, and in this case it's not eating too much, especially too many calories that are quickly turned into sugar. It's eating bright colors across the spectrum, so mostly fresh fruits and vegetables, and then getting a lot of Omega-3. So that's diet.
Exercise is important here too, and in this case it's just moderate aerobic activity. Walking easy, gentle biking. You know, it doesn't have to be vigorous. In fact, people who exercise a ton really, really vigorously and hard apparently do not have as much of this brain chemical as people who exercise modestly.
Aimee Prasek: Wow.
Henry: So diet and exercise. A third thing is an what's called an enriched environment. Now remember, these studies were done on rats.
Aimee Prasek: Right.
Henry: The, the rat definition of an enriched environment is pretty simple. You give them a challenge like learning a [00:13:00] maze. You give them toys to play with. And you give them playmates.
Aimee Prasek: Yep.
Henry: It's actually not that different for human beings. Give us, it's something to challenge us, stress us just a little bit, give us toys to play with and give us others to play with. Pretty simple. A fourth factor is having enough serotonin in the brain, which is ~kind of ~a big topic that I'm not gonna say more, more about right now, but that really key chemical serotonin is, is also helpful for this cell growth.
And then the fifth important one is social connection. So again, with rats, simple, give them another rat in their cage. And even if they're not best buds, there still is some kind of social connection
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: or like you said, Aimee having these little neighborhoods. Kind of a cool thing to think about. [00:14:00] So, ~um, ~age is also important here.
So even though I said these folks were end stage, late in life, producing a lot of it. Age does slow this process down for most of us. And so it's a really, really key variable. So a group of researchers decided they wanted to compare all these things in this rat study, and this is the thing I love. What they found looking at all of these factors, including age, was that the old rats who got to play with other old rats did better, were making more of this brain chemical and these cells than the youngsters that were running and eating this great diet and you know, doing all the other things that we try to do to take care of ourselves. It is social connection and playing.
Aimee Prasek: Wow.
Henry: I think it's super cool and even overrides age, which is a very powerful thing.
Aimee Prasek: Right? [00:15:00] Yeah. It counters kind of all the messaging we get. You know, everything is sort of work harder, go faster, be bigger. But it's like, oh, just there is some beautiful balance and simplicity in that recipe.~ I wanna, um,~ I think that's super interesting. Henry, thank you for sharing that.
There's like a growing amount of research here looking at work and wellbeing. ~ ~So this will relate back to old rats hanging out with other old rats. Gimme a moment. ~Um, ~But one of the clear findings is that essentially, as an aside, many of us are forced to or choose to work ourselves in, know, into the grave, to the bone, ~in the ul,~ in the US without any increased productivity or measurable benefits to anyone involved.
I'll just say that. That's finding number one, but ~there's. You know, that~ we'll talk about work,~ um,~ and overwork in some later episodes, I think. More related today though is another finding, [00:16:00] and it's that people are happiest on federal holidays and I think this is
Henry: Really?
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, which is, it seems surprising
Henry: It surprises me.
Aimee Prasek: ~Um, ~It, it is super important with also the latest conversations we've been having about reducing federal holidays. Bad idea. So what's so interesting about this is that even retirees, even old rats, folks who don't sorry, that, that seems really disrespectful actually. Even our wise rats,~ um,~ who don't work are happier ~are~ on federal holidays.
Henry: Hmm.
Aimee Prasek: And every day would seem like a federal holiday for a retiree. So why is it on these days that everyone is reporting increased happiness? Or you know, overall. The interpretation is that this increase in happiness is because folks are more likely to be with someone else [00:17:00] on a federal holiday. Even just
Henry: Ah.
Aimee Prasek: right? Even just a company of strangers.
Henry: Oh, interesting.
Aimee Prasek: And that's because there's more folks who are just not working. It
Henry: Yeah.
increases
Aimee Prasek: the chance that there's kind of people milling around in public spaces.
Henry: Yep.
Aimee Prasek: ~Um, ~And there's even some pressure that you shouldn't work on those federal holidays.
Henry: Yep.
Aimee Prasek: There's a norm there, so you're encouraged not to work and often encouraged to play in some way, hang out together, doing something outside, laughing, going to live music. Doing something creative,~ uh,~ maybe playing a sport, whatever, something fun, some type of play. And the researchers then are pretty clear here that this kind of situation creates more opportunities for social play and social cohesion. Enriched environment.
Henry: Wow.
Aimee Prasek: All of which has mental health benefits to each individual, kids, workers, retirees, old rats, and the larger [00:18:00] community. As they build those connections with each other, I just think that's fascinating.
Henry: Yeah, that is really interesting. Maybe that explains why I have this irrational amount of pleasure going to a 4th of July celebration in a small town, you know, and seeing the parade and all the, the food stands and everything else that's up and about and just all the people milling about. It's fun. I, I really enjoy it.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah. Yeah.
Henry: Even though I, even if I don't know a single person.
Aimee Prasek: Right or, or even if you don't really celebrate that federal holiday, like it's not even about the holiday, interestingly,
Henry: right.
it's about
Aimee Prasek: just the people and the presence. And
Henry: Yeah.
even
Aimee Prasek: if you're an introvert, there is something, there's like an energy that's created a bit that there is,~ um,~ that social norm of not working as much as possible for those who are able to have that holiday off and that there is a sense of gathering[00:19:00]
Henry: Yeah,
Aimee Prasek: yeah.
Henry: Well, I, I'm thinking of this old proverb that we've all heard "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." Now, in deference to you, Aimee, I've gotta, I've just gotta say this. I know that the movie The Shining uses,
Aimee Prasek: a,
Henry: haven't you?
Aimee Prasek: It's too scary. I can't.
Henry: Yeah, it's a creepy movie. I, I'm not,
Aimee Prasek: You can talk about it though.
Henry: Well, I'm not sure I actually saw it myself, but, but the main character, you know, Jack Nicholson, he, he keeps writing "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."
I don't know why, but it, it, it gives this phrase a little creepy tinge to it, but,
Aimee Prasek: Yeah. Yeah. The worst. The worst of all work and no play. I am sure.
Henry: But what I really find interesting is that this proverb has been around for [00:20:00] centuries.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: And it makes me wonder, were people 400 years ago already working too much that they needed this little lesson? And if so, then my conclusion is that we, human beings really do need to keep hearing over and over again the importance of balance in our lives.
And you know what? Maybe, maybe this is a really good reason for all these national holidays. We almost have to be forced in this country to take time off because otherwise, I think a lot of us would work virtually all the time.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah. This is not a new problem.
Henry: Apparently.
Aimee Prasek: No. I was reading this old like essay of it was, I think it's called The Right to Be Lazy by somebody Lafargue, I'll put it in the show notes. Very interesting. I think it's 400 years old and it's, it's [00:21:00] this argument, you know, we'll
Henry: huh.
Aimee Prasek: into this more too. You know that there is this dis-ease with rest in a lot of spaces and for a lot of reasons.
Henry: Ha.
Aimee Prasek: I'm sure people pushing boulders to make pyramids were not getting enough rest. Or, you know, like these, these are thousands of years old. So it's, it's due time that us humans, you know, make some progress here. We're gonna make some progress this month. That's the goal.
Henry: Love it.
Aimee Prasek: and I mean progress, like the most unproductive, nourishing progress, there's no to-do list. ~Um, ~It's like this forward movement in a hammock. Is that good?
Henry: Hmm.
Aimee Prasek: This, this side to side rhythmic sway. ~Um, ~Yeah. So, you know, on that note, I wanna say as well, like there are a lot of really legit reasons why we don't have time to play. Like you're working two full-time jobs to make a living [00:22:00] wage, right?
You're putting boulders to make a pyramid for someone. That's a public health and economic health crisis. ~Um, ~Populations of folks overworking to make ends meet is bad for our health. It's bad for business, so there's policy stuff we need to address that is essential. But I think a big part of our dismissal of play or fun is not just that there's more. ~Um, ~This belief that it's not totally necessary. There's moral layers we put on all this other stuff, so we'll get into that. ~Um, ~Sometimes we think it's a luxury or even an immature thing. So we've fallen for this false messaging that we need to be sort of this lone wolf or solitary giant kangaroo rat if we wanna make it big make it at all. ~Um, ~and even those sweet rats know that isn't the case. We are wired to come together as humans ~um,~ and to play. We're wired to play, to have fun and celebrate in ways that are [00:23:00] nourishing,~ um,~ and that help us cultivate that sense of belonging and support. It's how we thrive. So we'll get more into that this month through our Element of Fun. To close our time today, I'll share a bit more inspiration from play researcher Dr. Brian Sutton-Smith. Here's what he said: "For decades there has been this assumption that children played and adults didn't, that's rubbish."
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