[00:00:05] Henry Emmons, MD: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons, and welcome back to Joy Lab.
[00:00:09] Aimee Prasek, PhD: And I'm Aimee Prasek. So we are wrapping up our Element of Confidence with this final step of taking committed action. So that's action that's in alignment with our values, and sometimes — maybe more than sometimes — amidst self-doubt; action amidst discomfort; amidst imperfection. So we've worked a lot on that over the last several Episodes. In Episode 274, we worked on being with those feelings, those sensations of discomfort that so commonly rise up when we're doing something new and different. In Episode 275, we talked about unhooking from our thoughts, feelings, and sensations so they don't take us over. And last Episode we worked on clarifying values. And now we're using all that good stuff to take some action in ways that align with what we really care about, even when we're not feeling confident. Because, as we've discussed through this Series, and to quote Dr. Russ Harris, "The actions of confidence come first; the feelings of confidence come later."
[00:01:29] Henry Emmons, MD (2): Mhmm. Yes. Up until this point, what we've really been doing, I think, is the inner work that comes before the outer work. So we have been noticing and accepting discomfort. We've talked about disconnecting ourselves from thoughts — and then clarifying what really matters to us. So, these are all foundational and it is so important to create that good foundation first.
So now it's time to act. So Aimee used the term "committed action," which is different from just taking action. I wanna just explore that for a minute. Committed action is moving towards something that matters to you, even when it's uncomfortable, even when doubt is present , or you're not sure you'll succeed. In Acceptance and Commitment Therapy — ACT — there's a term called "psychological flexibility," and it's basically the ability to be present with your thoughts, feelings, sensations without letting them stop you from doing what's important to you.
So here's how psychological flexibility might look. You might say, "I feel anxious. I have the thought that I'm going to mess up." My heart starts racing, and I do it anyway because it matters to me. So remember, that is not the absence of fear or doubt. It's moving toward what matters despite the fear and doubt. And here's what I think is really remarkable about this. When you practice it — when you take these small actions aligned with your values, even if you don't feel ready for them — something in your nervous system starts to shift. Your amygdala, which we think of as the alarm system in the brain, starts to learn, "Oh, this isn't really all that dangerous. I just handled it." And then over time, the alarm response quiets down more and more. Not because you forced it to, we can't force it to calm down, but because you've really just given it increasing evidence that you can do hard things, and that really helps build confidence for the long term.
[00:04:08] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah. That psychological flexibility is really at the heart of courage and confidence. It's so helpful to remember that. It's not the absence of self-doubt or fear, it's the ability to be with it.
I'm just — I got lost in a world for a moment thinking about our puppy, Tyrannosaurus Rex, who my kid named. But he was having — he's been having these reactive dog issues, so when we take him on a walk, he loses his flipping mind when he sees a dog. [He] goes into this, like, fugue state and just starts barking, going crazy. And the only way to get him through this has been to take him on walks with a lot of sharp cheddar, [to] get him more confident and calm when other dogs are around. I'm just seeing his confidence build now. So now, last — yesterday, when we went on a walk, he saw a yippy little dog, and he turned to me looking for sharp cheddar with a confident look on his face.
[00:05:20] Henry Emmons, MD: Hahaha. I hope you had some.
[00:05:21] Aimee Prasek, PhD: I did. He won't do it for mozzarella, which drives me nuts. Haha.
[00:05:24] Henry Emmons, MD: Hahaha. Or not even mild cheddar?
[00:05:26] Aimee Prasek, PhD: No! He needs a sharp — he's got a great palate.
But anyway, so sometimes we see this, like, how other animals build confidence. We are no different, right? Like, bring [yourself] some sharp cheddar for these ways of taking action, or a nice mild brie, whatever your treat might be. But I think also to talk more about that fear, anxiety, I — and I think I noted this a few episodes ago — experiencing anxiety amidst a task is not a reliable predictor of performance. I think that is so liberating. So it means that we don't really need to do anything about the anxiety we might be feeling. It is not a quote, "bad thing." In fact, for a lot of tasks, there's a bell curve for anxiety. So a moderate amount of anxiety tends to actually improve performance. Too low anxiety [or] too high can negatively impact it. So if we're not too low or too high, then what really matters is our relationship with the anxiety, or with that fear. And if we're, you know, too low or too high, then we can work with that perhaps first, right? We can seek out support for that.
The big message here is that we can take action amidst that anxiety, amidst that fear, and I know that's really hard. It takes practice. It takes a lot of sharp cheddar. How can we make it easier? One way is really an attention shift, from what's called self-focused attention to more task-focused attention. Self-focused attention is when you're engaging in something, but your focus is dominated by these running assessments about being judged. Or in real time you're just picking apart your performance like a critical sports commentator. Or you're doing the thing, whatever it is, and the only thing you can think about is whether or not folks can hear your shaky voice, or if they can see the red patches that are starting to, kind of, expand on your neck. Like, haven't we all been there? And it just consumes you. It's so common. And that doesn't impact performance, right? Not the anxiety, but it is the anxiety about the anxiety — that self-focused attention can negatively impact your performance. Not the red patches, not the shaky voice even, but the anxiety about the anxiety, that self-focused attention. So we've been leaning on Russ Harris' book, _The Confidence Gap_, and he introduces this really great metaphor. It's a great metaphor for psychological flexibility. Let's do it together. So imagine your thoughts are your hands. They're always with you, right? Now, self-focused attention is like taking your hands , [representing] your thoughts, and bringing them over your eyes. That self-focused attention becomes all you can see. It is the only point of focus. And so you can't — so you can take your hands away for a moment here — you can't take committed action with your hands over your eyes. It's just too hard to see the options. And that's when your performance can really suffer. Your actions are then just coming from that self-focused attention. Usually self-critical thoughts, like I just explained. And honestly, even if your thoughts are narcissistic, like self-aggrandizing thoughts, like, "I am doing so good." Like, "look! Hear my clear, and loud, and confident voice." If that is your point of focus, if your eyes are covered by those thoughts — you can't really see good options either, right? You're blind to the world around you, which relates back to our last Element of Humility.
But let's assume that those thoughts — our self-focused thoughts that are, full of anxiety and self-criticism — they're covering your eyes. When we can unhook from those thoughts — we talked about that when we talked about cognitive defusion. When we can then switch attention to the task, we can create space and actually see what's happening. And you still have your hands, you still have your fingers, you still have your thoughts; the anxiety might still be there. All that is there if you need it. You don't have to remove your hands. They're still there for you, but they don't have to blind you or hold you back, so you can shift your attention to the task.
And I get that sounds, like, so incredibly simple, but of course it can be hard when all of those uncomfortable feelings rise up. It is something we have to practice. So practice with small things daily. To come back to my dog walking experience, like, you just kinda go out and take those small walks. And you can ask yourself, " What does this moment call for? What can I do in this moment?" And every time we get, again and again, distracted by ourselves — thinking about how we're showing up; that self-focused attention; what other people are thinking about us — when our thoughts, [like] our hands, start to cover our face, we can notice, we can defuse. We've talked about this in the last several Episodes. We can reset, and then we can shift our attention. What does this moment call for?
[00:11:00] Henry Emmons, MD: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it might be helpful to say a little bit more about attention, 'cause it's really one of the most powerful things under our control. And as we all know, or at least most of us know, it's also one of the hardest. So here's what I think is happening neurologically when you are self-focused. Your prefrontal cortex, that part of the brain that [sits] right behind your forehead that handles complex tasks, creativity, gives us a sense of presence, is partly offline. And your resources instead are being diverted to detecting threats or self-monitoring. So you're basically using your brain's computing power to worry about how you look or whatever, instead of actually doing the thing in front of you and doing it well. And we all know how that goes.
So when you shift your attention to the task, when you ask yourself something like, "What does this moment call for?" You are redirecting those resources. You're bringing your prefrontal cortex back online. You are able to think more clearly, again; respond in a more flexible way, and actually perform closer to the level you're capable of. And you don't have to wait until self-critical thoughts stop in order to do this, you don't have to wait until you're no longer feeling anxious. You can have the thought, like, "Everyone's judging me," and still shift your attention to the task. You can feel the anxiety and still focus on what needs to happen right now. And the more you do this, shifting your attention away from self-monitoring and toward the task in front of you, the easier it gets. It's really a lot like training a muscle. Each time you do it, you're strengthening your ability to direct your own attention, and that is a really helpful skill; something that'll serve you in every area of your life.
So here's a — maybe a practical way to approach this. When you notice yourself getting caught in this self-focused attention, just pause — just for a moment, doesn't have to be long — and then ask yourself, "What does this moment need from me? What's the next best-thing I can do?" And then do that, imperfectly. Just do it. You will probably get pulled back into that self-focused attention, and that's okay, really. It gives you a chance to do another repetition, another part of this exercise, to reset again. Ask the same question. Do the next best-thing.
So this isn't about achieving some perfectly focused state that you never get taken away from. It's about practicing this shift. You get distracted, your mind wanders; you bring it back, over and over again. And every time you practice this, you get better at it. And really, this is how you can build genuine confidence. Not from feeling certainty, but through developing the skill of moving forward even when you still have some doubt.
[00:14:40] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yeah, I love that you're highlighting that the power of the practice is in the bringing-back, and placing the attention where you want it. It doesn't even matter how long you're in that state necessarily. It's really the practice of bringing it back that is like — that's the real power. Those are like the bicep curls. Haha. I love it.
[00:14:59] Henry Emmons, MD: Yeah. I think that's the real skill that comes from a mindfulness practice. The mind wanders, as it is wont to do, and then you bring it back and it's just the repetition of that, that makes you better at it.
[00:15:16] Aimee Prasek, PhD: That's why we — a lot of our Experiments lean on the science of mindfulness. We keep working on bringing the attention back, placing it where we want to.
So, okay, now if we were gonna sell a book, Henry, I think our next chapter would have to be about setting those goals, and yep, we'd have to have like a patented six-step strategy to get your dreams. Like, go out there —
[00:15:42] Henry Emmons, MD: Even five would do. Hahaha.
[00:15:44] Aimee Prasek, PhD: We'll do — Hahaha. Yeah. But we're not trying to sell a book, and I don't have a five-step practice for goal-setting. There's a bunch of them out there. But I think, at times, that's just not the direction to go.
So instead of jumping into those big, hairy, audacious goals, let's consider sticking with the work we've done already, 'cause it is important work. Loosening the grip of thoughts — we've talked about that. Clarifying your values — this task-focused attention. These are goals. Those are goals. Working on those are big goals,
You can put some specificity around them too. You can work on them daily, taking two small actions, maybe, daily. In the moments when you find your confidence low and you're wrapped in your thoughts — you can notice, you can defuse, and ask yourself, "What does this moment call for?" That's what a goal could look like as you're working on building this confidence and working on those skills.
And celebrate the small wins. And with practice, you can develop more skills, more mastery, more confidence in doing those things, and building confidence in those areas will absolutely spread to other areas.
[00:17:07] Henry Emmons, MD (2): Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like where you're going with this, Aimee, and I think we do get this wrong a lot because we're kinda taught to think big and set ambitious goals and that can be good, as you were saying. But right now, if you're just starting to rebuild confidence, the most important thing you can do is to get really good at small, committed actions. Just what we've been talking about today. 'Cause those small actions give you proof that you can do this. Every time you take one small action that's aligned with your values even when you're uncomfortable, you're collecting evidence that you can do hard things.
If I'm working with someone who's really struggling with depression, for example, who has lost their confidence, we don't start out by setting big goals. We start with really small things: getting out of bed, taking a shower, going for a walk. They sound super small, but each one is an act of commitment and requires you to move forward even when you're not feeling like it. And then after doing this for a while, with small, committed actions that you do daily, something starts to shift. You feel different. Your mood feels different even before the depression really goes away, 'cause there's evidence that you can take action in spite of it.
So this focus on the practice of small things is super helpful. Daily practice. Loosening the grip of thoughts, clarifying what matters. "Is this action aligned with my values?" And celebrate when you do these things. Celebrate it. Not because you did it perfectly, but because you tried; you made the attempt.
As you build confidence in one area, it does start to spread and it — you start to believe at a deep level, "I can do hard things," and that becomes a foundation for taking on bigger things. So you don't need to wait. Just start small. Do committed actions again and again, and the confidence will come later.
And let me just add that this work isn't something you do once and then you're done. Confidence is not a destination that you arrive at. It is an ongoing practice, and some days are simply harder than others, just like with everything. Some days the self-doubt is gonna be louder and you'll wanna give up. That's just a normal part of being human. The practice is in showing up anyway.
[00:19:57] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Yes. I am — I'm thinking of a quote from Dr. Anne Wilson Schaef. She wrote, "Perfectionism is not a quest for the best. It is a pursuit of the worst in ourselves." Isn't that interesting? Like —
[00:20:15] Henry Emmons, MD: Hmm. Yeah.
That's kind of a mind bender. Haha.
[00:20:18] Aimee Prasek, PhD: Right? "Perfectionism is not a quest for the best. It is a pursuit of the worst in ourselves." it's always caught me — there's something there, it relates to confidence, and it's something that can definitely keep us stuck. So I love that you're reminding us to do those small actions imperfectly. It is part of who we are. And it's part of the best of who you are, that resilient nature, to take small actions that build.
So, if you're in the Joy Lab Program, head over there for your last Experiment for this Element of Confidence.
And to close us today, some wisdom from Vincent van Gogh, I think, is a good way to go out. Here's what he said: "Great things are done by a series of small things brought together."
[00:21:10] Thanks for joining us!: Thank you for listening to the Joy Lab podcast. If you enjoy today's show, visit JoyLab.coach to learn more about the full Joy Lab program. Be sure to rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
