Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome back to Joy Lab.
Aimee Prasek: And I am Aimee Prasek. So this month we're talking about our Element of Fun and during our Element of Fun we talk about play. We also often talk about rest. I think it's the perfect compliment to last episode where we talked about joyless urgency.
Henry: Mm
Aimee Prasek: So we're gonna talk about rest today. We're gonna do that through a big obstacle that I've heard called pathological productivity. And, [00:01:00] Henry, before we got on just a moment ago, brought up how funny it is that when we're talking about fun, we choose a, a topic like pathological productivity. And yes, I just find all of these obstacles for fun that I wanna raise up.
Aimee Prasek: I think it's kind of interesting. It'll be kind of fun, anyway. But this is a really good topic. It is a phrase that caught my attention, pathological productivity.
Henry: Yeah. Right. Nothing says fun quite so much.
Aimee Prasek: Pathological productivity. Yikes. Yeah.
Henry: Well you know
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: I love to talk about spectrums of mental and emotional health, and I think that what we're talking about today exists on a spectrum. I think there is a productivity spectrum. On the one end, there is next to no productivity, which for most of us, doesn't feel good for very long,
Aimee Prasek: Right.
Henry: but it [00:02:00] might feel quite good for a while.
Aimee Prasek: Absolutely.
Henry: But right now we're talking about the other end of the spectrum where it's way too much focus on productivity.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: Somewhere on that end of the spectrum is what I, I think we could just call overwork, you know, just, just working too hard. And I think most of us have been there, one time or another. I certainly have, and I don't think that it's even that bad of a thing as long as it's short lived. We don't wanna live there though, in overwork. But I think even further out on the spectrum is what we're talking about today, this idea of pathological productivity. If it is pathological, it means it's causing some harm, right? And I believe that it is planting seeds for some future illness. Something like hypertension or heart disease.
Henry: It could even become an [00:03:00] illness of its own. Like, you know, if you know somebody who truly has a work addiction, it's a real thing and just as hard to break out of as any other addiction. Once it sets in, it's, it's there, it's set. So, obviously, if we can, we want to change course before it gets to the point of any of these kind of breakdowns in our body or mind or, or heart.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, I think it's really helpful to see this on a spectrum and also to- you brought up, there's maybe times for overwork, so to also see kind of the seasons that come in. Yeah. Like there is a time, possibly a season to really work hard to harvest, to be out there, but there's also a fallow season that you need that rest.
Aimee Prasek: And so yeah, there's a spectrum and then there's seasons
Henry: Yeah.
Aimee Prasek: And there's actually a, maybe a more scientific phrase for this [00:04:00] pathological productivity that I think is helpful to call out and it's idleness aversion. So idleness aversion is a very common human tendency to absolutely detest idleness.
Henry: Hmm.
Aimee Prasek: There's some super interesting research here that has found that as long as we have a bit of justification, even if it's false,
Aimee Prasek: we tend to engage in busy behaviors rather than experience idleness.
Aimee Prasek: One of my favorite studies that I've brought up in the past is when they have participants sit in a room and they can either be idle or they can shock themselves, and like half the people just shock themselves. And the men shock themselves more.
Henry: Anything but idleness.
Aimee Prasek: Oh, I love it. I'll put that in. I, I'll put the, our episode when we talked about— oh God, it just cracks me up. "Ding" "zing" rather than just pausing for a moment.
Aimee Prasek: We are a complex, [00:05:00] wonderful creature. Um, but you know, there is, there is some reason for this, there's some reason that we would rather shock ourselves at at times. let me talk about that for a moment.
Aimee Prasek: So there is some evolutionary reasons why we do this. It makes sense as a species, we are wired to receive a message, to check in and assess if action is needed. And then if action is needed, we need to be motivated to take it. So there's a reason why we might have this sort of like, immediate response to idleness. Should I be doing something? Am I safe? Do I have what I need? Do I need to rest? Might be the other question that pops up. So the first thing to note I think, is that we are not pathologically lazy creatures left to our own devices. And I think that's a common myth that if we aren't forced to do something or have some kind of external controller to get us up and going, [00:06:00] that we just assume do nothing.
Aimee Prasek: It's not true. We are wired to get moving when we need to get moving. Second thing that the research is pretty clear on is that we want to put out effort that matters because expending energy unnecessarily can be a bad thing for a species. Wasting energy and then needing to fuel our system to replenish would be a bad thing before the days of instacart or just the advent of the car.
Aimee Prasek: So, there's an interesting paradox here that can set us up for some problems at times. And it's that we don't like to be idle and we want a reason to be busy. So it can kind of set us up for some anxiety when it comes to rest and time off work, and also this kind of pathological productivity if we're not [00:07:00] aware. So, we might feel some idleness anxiety or be feeling some depression, some, some type of dis-ease and, or thirsty for reasons to take action. We want to ease those feelings of discomfort and consciously choosing rest can ease those feelings at times. And practicing more comfort with rest is a skill.
Aimee Prasek: We talk about that here. We work on that here. But so often we think action is always the solution, and sometimes it is. But if we aren't critical in our thinking, if we're not thoughtful about what we're choosing to take action on, then we can quite easily and unconsciously take actions or just stay busy in ways that at best are not helpful, that just cycle us in kind of a pathological pseudo productivity and that sometimes harm ourselves or others.
Henry: You know, I'm, I'm reminded of hearing [00:08:00] from so many of the folks I work with that when they take a two week vacation, they really enjoy it because it takes most of that first week to unwind and be able to relax and enjoy their time off it. We just get so wound up by all of this.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: that getting to that point of pleasure in relaxation or idleness is, is hard. It takes time.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, it takes practice.
Henry: So I, I came across what I think is kind of a fun study that I, that I think is relevant here.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah. Yeah.
Henry: And I, I do know that fun might not be quite the right word here,
Aimee Prasek: Oh, I'm, I'm into it.
Aimee Prasek: It's interesting.
Aimee Prasek: Okay. I think it's fun.
Henry: So the ti, the title of this article is
Henry: Anxious Mondays Leave Lasting Mark on Stress.
Aimee Prasek: Somebody's got a case of the Mondays,
Henry: [00:09:00] Was that in a show?
Aimee Prasek: Office Space.
Aimee Prasek: It's in a movie.
Henry: Oh, funny.
Aimee Prasek: But go on. Sorry. Go on.
Henry: This was research done in England where they followed 3,500 adults over the age of 50. Just to see if there is more perceived anxiety and problematic stress on Mondays than there is on other days.
Aimee Prasek: Hmm.
Henry: Seems pretty obvious why they chose Mondays, right?
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: 'cause they, they saw the show Office— what's it?
Aimee Prasek: Office Space. Yeah.
Henry: Office Space.
Aimee Prasek: See movies can influence good science.
Henry: So, um, what they measured was the amount of stress hormones in both the blood and in the hair.
Henry: I know it sounds weird to measure stress hormones in the hair, but because hair grows so slowly, it's a way of getting a snapshot into a longer term perspective. 'Cause it takes some months, really, after the high stress before it shows up in [00:10:00] the hair.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: What they found then is that those who did feel anxious on Mondays did have long-term impacts from stress. They had higher cortisol levels that lasted for at least two months. Now, that's not surprising. I would've expected that, but here's the kind of fun fact. This continued to happen even in those older adults who had stopped working who were retired. So other,
Aimee Prasek: Hmm.
Henry: you know, retirees continue— not all, but, but many retirees continue to feel more stressed and anxious on Mondays
Aimee Prasek: Wow.
Henry: because it is so woven into our bones, really.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: And what I take from that is that if we do get stressed by our work, and of course many of us do,
Aimee Prasek: Hmm.
Henry: and it's often because we are simply working too hard. What we are doing is we are [00:11:00] entraining ourselves to continue to be stressed by this long after the actual stress has stopped. So in a sense we're creating a stress pathway in our brain. And we've talked about neural pathways before. They take time to create and they take time to uncreate, once we decide that we want to undo the pattern. So obviously I am not yet retired and, and not as obvious, but I don't really feel very stressed anymore by my work, not, not routinely like I used to. But I do know a lot of people who feel so anxious on a Sunday night or a Monday, and it reminds me of how we get, we get entrained by the academic calendar too.
Henry: I mean, even though I have not been a student for decades, I still find that [00:12:00] I've got a rhythm of ramping up in late August and September, and I know lots of people who do. It just doesn't ever quite leave you.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah.
Henry: My point is that we can create a habit being stressed by the drive for productivity. It's a habit. Whatever the reason we're doing it, is it more money? Are we trying to please someone? Are we trying to excellent at what we're doing? It doesn't really matter because if we're not careful, if we let it become a pattern and if we don't get comfortable with having genuine downtime, breaks from this productivity, we're setting ourselves up for long-term problems.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, that, I think that's a fun study. Absolutely.
Aimee Prasek: I
Henry: knew you would, Aimee.
Aimee: Yeah, it does. It, it really reinforces that, that patterning, you know, like our stress response is, it's like a creature [00:13:00] of habit in so many ways. We've, trained it over time and it will continue to, to follow that pattern until we give it something new.
Aimee: I think that's really helpful to think about. And maybe the hardest part there. I mean, if it's, if it's work stress, it's kind of, you know, an maybe a known driver of that stress response, but so often I think these drivers are functioning outside of our consciousness. So you said that our pathological productivity might be about money, people pleasing, stuff like that.
Aimee: And so I think we have to get some specificity, maybe even get first some awareness and some specificity around it to change it. Like to really kind of name what that driver might be to create a new pattern, get more conscious about those drivers. Why am I taking action? And probably why am I so uncomfortable with idleness, with rest, with taking a break?
Aimee: So asking that [00:14:00] right question and looking for the, the answer, the driver. And maybe I'll give us a shortcut here. I think a primary driver for our idleness aversion, our discomfort with rest, why it might take like a week of vacation to just untangle ourselves a bit has to do with a warped moral aspect that we've layered on to rest.
Aimee: So hear me out, let me explain this. Nearly every self-proclaimed guru, business expert, or biohacking influencer has something to say about idleness. And mostly the gist is that it leads to the devil, to poverty, to incurable laziness, to some other terrible thing. And that's false.
Aimee: It's sloppy black and white thinking. Is my perspective there. So in our first episode [00:15:00] for for Fun, our Element of Fun, we referenced researcher Dr. Brian Sutton-Smith and his quote that the opposite of play is not work. Instead, the opposite of play is depression. We've got a similar problem with opposites here.
Aimee: I think where we think the opposite of work is evilness or self-destruction, that if we're not doing something, if we're not doing something productive all the time, if we're not hustling, if we're not busying ourselves, then we're backsliding into evil and worthlessness or something. Those things are not the opposite of work. And it dismisses our own built-in system that will let us know when to be active and when to rest. Look at a kid, we've, we've brought up kids a lot in these episodes on fun and play. They can be our mentors here.They play and they're active and they rest. They follow their rhythms so often. And we never lose [00:16:00] that as adults, but I think we often outsource it to these kinds of messages that say work and as much work as you can do, you can sleep when you're dead, that type of message. That it's morally good or strong and that rest is morally weak.
Aimee: But what is all that busyness doing and who are we doing it for? This is similar to our conversation about joyless urgency. This pathological productivity are feeding "inscrutable ends that are utterly not our own." As Marilyn Robinson wrote. I'll link to that episode on joyless urgency.
Aimee: And in that episode we also talked about our inner wisdom calling us to play and we need to listen to that. It calls us to rest too, and we need to hear it and respect it. And it calls us to work. It calls us to engage in the kinds of activities and meaningful actions that create stronger social supports and that strengthen our, our sense of [00:17:00] self-efficacy, of accomplishment, our internal locus of control. It calls us to do that too. So we need play. We need rest, we need work. And it's a rhythm within us, a rhythm that we can tap back into because we're wired to move with it rather than constantly fight against it.
Aimee: So, I don't know, Henry, if you wanna, like I am, I'm giving this, this explanation of this moral layer that we wanna, that we often put on to rest. How can we get more comfortable with rest. Maybe we can go there if you wanna give some ideas and then I'll follow up.
Henry: Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come at this kind of sideways. So, do you remember, Aimee, when you were in school that there was always a couple kids, at least in the class, who just seemed like kind of daydreamy, you know, they were,
Aimee Prasek: Yes.
Henry (2): kind of sitting there staring out the window, [00:18:00] or, you know, not because they had ADHD necessarily, but just because they, they like to let their mind wander.
Aimee Prasek: Yep, they were doodling on their notebooks all over, perhaps creating wonderful little worlds.
Henry: I could kind of see you doing that, Aimee
Aimee Prasek: Yep.
Henry: Were, yep. Yeah. Am I right?
Aimee Prasek: There were moments where I was not paying attention.
Henry: Oh, I was so dutiful. But that's another story. So, one of the favorite lessons I've drawn from some of the newer neuroscience studies has to do with the value of letting your mind wander, which we often think of as mental idleness. And I think probably, you know, these. These daydreaming kids in, in the classroom probably got, there was some judgment about them.
Henry: You know, they weren't, they weren't trying, they weren't paying attention, weren't working hard. So let me just talk a little bit about how I understood those studies [00:19:00] about why it's so good to let our mind wander. So I have this image, which is something I might have made up, but it's a, it's an image of the brain that if you, could look at your brain with some kind of fancy three dimensional scanner that that showed what little parts of the brain were lit up with energy and activity in other words, kind of a map of our consciousness.
Aimee Prasek: Hmm.
Henry: It would appear kind of like a, a, a domed web or net. Okay. Kind of little bigger than the shape of the, the brain. But, in this net, kind of think of Indra's net, if you have that image, there are these, these nodes of brightness, kind of at the juncture lines that connect the nodes. So the webbing, if you will, [00:20:00] is these lines that connect these little nodes of energy activity. and so the brain is just constantly, energy is constantly flowing from one center to another. Just never really stops.
Henry: So like the, the little centers are things that we've heard, like the hippocampus or the amygdala, but there's dozens of them of varying degrees of importance. But the point is that they all have to communicate with one another. And so there's this elaborate web of activity. Now you can imagine that when, when you're working really hard mentally, if you were looking at this in real time, there might be a lot more activity in the outer part of the brain, the cortex, but there is still this constant communication happening between all the brain centers. So then, imagine that you let your mind wander for just a, a few minutes, maybe. [00:21:00] And what happens then in this web of activity is that everything settles down. The, the areas that had been super active kind of calm down.
Henry: They get a chance to rest. And there might have been other areas that were underactive that weren't online, so to speak, and they get a chance to balance out a bit. So there's just this much more consistent, balanced flow of energy going everywhere in this, this map of the brain. So in the state of mind wandering, the entire brain is in sync with itself and it is also resting. And from that place it becomes much easier and much more efficient to activate, when you need to, whatever part of the brain is called upon. It's just, it's almost like, um, turning off all the apps on your [00:22:00] phone and freeing up energy or, or maybe even completely, you know, rebooting a computer and just letting it start fresh.
Henry: It gives us a fresh starting place that we can move from that's not inhibited by the the leftovers from all this activity that was happening before. Does that make sense? I don't know if I described it really well, but
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I, you know, I, funny enough. I brought this book up a couple episodes ago. The, Inner World of Daydreaming by Jerome Singer. I, I, I brought it up because it was on my desk. I don't know what we were talking about a couple episodes ago, why I brought it up. It's so funny that you're referencing that, but yeah, he talks about, this is a book from 1966, I think, talks about that mental downtime and how it lets creativity and problem solving kind of arise.
Aimee Prasek: We kind of are able to come into a flow of fantasy and [00:23:00] creativity, but that is applied to our lives later. It's very cool. So I, you know, like we are inclined to do this in a way that not only calms the brain, but strengthens connections that support our wellbeing. As long as we're not ruminating, which some right mind wandering and, and rumination can kind of clash into each other. but this is like the positive kind of rumination or positive mind wandering where it's it's playful, it's creative. It inspires us to take action perhaps. And I think it, it allows us to step into more awareness, as we're talking about this pathological productivity, helps us to step into more awareness of what do we wanna do, what do we wanna create, as opposed to what should I just do next?
Aimee Prasek: Does that tie into kind of that net that you're
Henry: Yeah.
Aimee Prasek: describing? [00:24:00] I love that. So, you could, you could practice guided visualizations or play in this, like a set a timer and do some daydreaming in ways that feel creative and nourishing for you. I wanna give another couple ideas of ways to get more comfortable with, with rest and to step out of this kind of pathological productivity.
Aimee Prasek: And one way to do that, I think, is to get a hobby. I'm not saying that, like get a hobby. Like get a hobby, how fun. Something that does not turn into a side hustle or a business or something that is quantifiable in any way really. But something that you just do because it makes you smile. For example, we have chickens. And if you listened to the Podcast before, you know, I love our chickens.
Aimee Prasek: Having chickens— we're in the [00:25:00] burbs for the most part. We have a bigger, space. Chickens have a lot of space. They have quite the sanctuary in the backyard, but they are a lot of work. It is not cost effective even with egg prices that soared months ago or whatever. It is not cost effective to have chickens.
Aimee Prasek: But it is, it is a unproductive, wonderful experience and time for me. I love watching them peck around. That's all. You know, it, it doesn't check off anything on my to-do list. So there is something about finding a hobby, something that you enjoy doing that absolutely is not quantifiable or doesn't turn you into, into a business.
Aimee Prasek: Another way to do this is to identify a third place. And possibly a third place that has some type of relationship with rest. So a third place, we've talked about this, I'll link to an episode. There's [00:26:00] first places like your home. Second place is usually your work, which for many folks, the second place is their first place if they're working at home.
Aimee Prasek: A third place is a public space where you just interact with people. Oftentimes these are like coffee shops, libraries, the YMCA or like a gym might be a place. So if there is a meditation class or even a library, a quiet space or a coffee shop where you can just, ah, come into and breathe, be with folks who are maybe not doing something productive as well can be very helpful to just kind of get a little bit more ease with not checking something off of your to-do list. Henry, do you wanna give anything else here?
Henry: Yeah, I'm gonna give you a quote from, Winnie, the Pooh, I think.
Aimee Prasek: Yes, please.
Henry: or somebody else. I'm not sure
Aimee Prasek: Oh,
Henry: who said it, but I love it. [00:27:00] "Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits."
Aimee Prasek: We did an episode on that, on solitude, right? I'm gonna link that. Great. Yes, that's perfect. I will link that in the show notes. Um. I have to add, let me add one more quote. This is from Oliver Burkeman, author of Four Thousand Weeks, which is a fantastic book if you're struggling with pathological productivity, I'll put it in the show notes. Here's a quote, links to hobbies, and just sitsing, sits-ing? Sitting. All right. Here's what he wrote.
Aimee Prasek: "In an age of, in instrumentalization, the hobbyist is a subversive. He insists that some things are worth doing for themselves alone despite offering no payoffs in terms of productivity or profit. The derision we heap upon the [00:28:00] avid stamp collector or train spotter might really be—" love that, "a kind of defense mechanism to spare us from confronting the possibility that they're truly happy in a way that the rest of us pursuing our telic lives, ceaselessly in search of future fulfillment are not."
Aimee Prasek: I love that. So finding something that you think is a waste of time and maybe do that. Collect stamps, spot trains, birding, like all of these things that you might judge as a waste of time. Maybe give it a try. I love that from Oliver Burkeman.
Aimee Prasek: And so next episode we're gonna get into something that I think is really interesting. it's just a bit related to FOMO, but even better, it's GOMO I'm not gonna tell you what the acronym stands for. We'll come back next week. It's so good. And I think it's [00:29:00] also, it's just so related to what we're talking about here, but I wanna end us with a quote that I hope sums up as well,you know, what we've gotten into today, what we're gonna get into next episode, which when we're talking about GOMO (hint), is essentially that we can't have it all in this life and, thankfully, that frees us up to actually have some fun and to engage in something meaningful and worthwhile. I'm gonna quote Oliver Burkeman again to take us out here.
Aimee Prasek: Here it is. "Productivity is a trap. Becoming more efficient just makes you more rushed. And trying to clear the decks simply makes them fill up again faster. Nobody in the history of humanity has ever achieved "work-life balance," whatever that might be, and you certainly won't get there by copying the "six things successful people do before 7:00 AM—" So true.
Aimee Prasek: "The day will never arrive when you finally [00:30:00] have everything under control." I'm gonna skip ahead a few sentences. "So let's start by admitting defeat. None of this is ever going to happen, but you know what? That's excellent news."
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